What is everyones opinon on the revolver schackles im thinking about getting a set for my X.

There are some around here that use them to good results. Ive mainly seen them on Jeeps and the performance is impressive. Not sure how they affect handling on the road but if your looking for that type of equipment you probably dont want to cruise the interstates at 80 much.....

Tim

waiting for TJ to chime in here.

Not recommended. They are universally maligned by guys around here as "suicide shackles". 4x4 publications don't think much of 'em, either. I looked into them a few years ago and decided they were detrimental to my rig.

A gas tank skid plate is a better use of cash, IMO.

http://www.xterraownersclub.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=73;t=001590;p=4

Yeah - they are maligned by those who don't have them, and don't know how they work....its amazing how many wrong ideas are out there.

Most of the problems come from the same problems off roaders run into when they make a mod w/o understanding it...like adding 44" tires to a wrangler, and blowing the diffs, jacking up a truck, and then getting off camber with the new higher center of gravity, and rolling over, etc.

So - Revolvers give you a couple of more inches of droop than a regular shackle...say like having the lift of a 3" SL, but the travel of a 5" SL, etc.

As the rear droops more, the drive train, shocks, etc...need to be able to reach.

I've seen people toss on longer shackles (Not just Revolvers, same deal there too...), and spit out drive shafts on hill climbs, over extend shocks, etc.

If you install mods with some concept of what's involved, there's no more trouble with a Revolver than any other mod...its fairly straight forward really.

So - part of the misconceptions are repeated stories about "a guy who spit a shaft or rolled over" w/o context, and the other part (A HUGE part), is the plane on the tread mill-like lack of understanding of how they actually work.

The primary mis-understandings involve the idea that -

"an axle that droops against a spring its hanging from, pushes down on the earth harder than an axle that is LESS pulled up"...seriously, some people think a revolver'd axle has no weight pushing down, compared to an axle with a solid shackle...go figure.

The other mis-understanding is that a truck is held on the earth by the leaf springs, not by gravity...so if you don't hold the truck down, it floats off into space....they call this "unloading".

It doesn't actually happen, I tried to go down hills so steep that stock trucks ass ends did leave the ground, doing front wheelies if they braked a bit, etc...but the Revolver'd ass end did not leave the ground, it stayed ON the ground...no unloading or other whacky physics appeared to amuse onlookers, etc.

When any off road mishap occurs, people look for why...its how we learn.

As a species though, we tend to be big on associations...and, there's a strong history of correlation = causation going on.



So - If something on a truck is different from the others...we tend to blame THAT on why the mishap occurred...so if a guy rolls because he missed the line by a fraction of an inch, or the line was altered by the previous truck and now the rut/root leaned him a bit more over, etc...so he rolled...people typically miss that level of detail (Its hard to see of course, hell, the DRIVER typically didn't know, etc....).

So - what's different, that MIGHT make a roll? Too much lift? Too stiff a suspension, so that he couldn't stuff the tire, and it pushed him over? An Antenna Medicine Ball? He's really fat? "Whacky Shackles? Etc....

....that's how it works....its human nature.



So - in my experience with jeeps for decades, and X's etc...the Revolvers work great, are not a problem, any more than any other mod you might make....unless you are sensitive to the opinions of people who don't have them/don't know how they work, etc.

nice.

I have them. I love them. I do, however, need longer shocks. They are on my 05. They were installed 2 weeks ago, and I have done two weekends of trails with them. So far no problem on the trails or highway. Here are some pics from today:

holy hell lol thats alot of flex with just shackles! thats sick man. gl w/your decision man but i think if you want that lil bit of extra flex then the revolvers would be the way to go.

I also wanted to point this out. This has been quoted from an article that dislikes revolvers (Lamest 4x4 Products).

"Revolvers, or any homebuilt wacky shackle. Gawd, makes us just want to turn around if we get behind a guy running these things on the trail because of how many driveshafts we've seen bind and spit out on their behalf-especially while climbing a ledge. They unload and cause the springs to jack, sending the rear pinion toward the floor and the front toward the ground, negating any traction the tires may get. Just a bad idea all around unless all you care about is RTI ramp scores."

The same articles says this about steel bumpers.

"Bumpers made from square or rectangle tube? Just ugly. With all the manufacturing technology available today, we can't understand why anyone would want to replace a good-looking factory bumper with square stock-especially on late-model Jeeps. Buildings, trailers, and farm-animal feeders should be made from square and large-diameter round tube, not Jeep parts."

And we all know a majority of Xterra owners would not consider a steel bumper lame. There is plenty of articles out there on these shackles, just do your reading and research before making your decision.

How do the revolver shackles handle in the event of a Panic stop on the street?
Do they unload and send the rear of the truck in the air while nose diving the front?
That would be interesting to see.

They are not really spring-loaded, how can they unload? Afterall, the truck is supported by it's weight, right? So if the revolver actually "unloaded" and sent the ass in the air, a regular shackle would have just lifted the axle off the ground, which does not make sense.

I think people seem to think that what's holding the truck to the ground is the axle and with no axle the truck would just bobble like a slinky.

That and the truck would have to have to front shocks..... SAS with springs and revolvers up front might have trouble with the sudden stopping....

Naw - the shackles don't make much difference in braking either, or cornering for that matter...they act exactly like regular shackles in that regard.

They are folded when gravity is not pulling the axle down (It NEVER pulls the truck UP, only the axle down...)

When folded, they support the weight of the truck exactly like a regular shackle does.

I've nailed the brakes in emergency stops, and nothing unusual ever happened, even if turning while braking, etc...except on one of the straight stops, the Honda behind me crashed into my ass end so hard the Honda was totaled...(Lady ran a stop sign RIGHT in front of me...Honda behind me was unattentive despite tail gating).

Luckily, the Shrock took the rear impact, and I had ZERO damage, which was cool.



So - braking, cornering, climbing, decending...no problems...gravity is pretty reliable, and so far, the X has not tried to float into space despite having Revolvers.



Again - they are just shackles that go a bit longer...they are not anti-gravity machines...regular shackles swing to let the leaf pack droop more, etc...the Revolvers give the extra droop with an articulated joint as well, that can relieve the tension on the leaf pack when its flexed, etc....

....they work like other shackles do, only better, that's pretty much it.



Any lifted truck is going to lean more during directional changes, fore/aft, or, side to side, etc...its got a higher center of gravity (COG) if its lifted.

My 3" SL used a shackle that made me 1.5" higher...I replaced it with a Revolver Shackle that only made me 2/3" higher...but gave me more droop...so my COG was better, not worse...but the tires could stay on the ground with the travel normally associated with a 4-5" lift.

If you want better articulation, invest in a full spring pack.

If your goal is to score high on an RTI ramp, then by all means.

But if you want meaningful traction with your flex, save your money and don't buy gimmicky items. Period.

(PS: Rarely ever does the driver of a rig actually see what happens to their revolvers when they're going through an obstacle... And even more rare is somebody watching that knows WTF they're looking at. So they get boggled by the "flex" without considering everything else. And the joker that spent top dollar on their gimmick isn't EVER going to admit they're worth no more than a decent size paperweight, 'cause afterall, THEY spent THEIR money on 'em, so they've "got" to be great....)

sigh...

Please explain the physics that support your view that articulation with a shackle is worse than articulation with a leaf.

Here. Let me pretend to be Brent for a moment:

SEARCH YOU LAZY BASTARD. THIS HAS BEEN COVERED BEFORE. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND...

The fact that X's don't float into space if the shackles are longer was covered.

NO ONE has been able to explain why the X is going to act like a helium balloon tethered to the shackle...THAT'S the explaination the "I Never had them, but I think the plane can't take off if its on a tread mill" needs to support their theory...

...in contrast to emperical evidence to the contrary.



When you are ready to make that FIRST post explaining why a longer shackle is going to make the X float...THEN Brent can tell someone to search for it.

If you would SEARCH, you'd find that I have NEVER said the X will take off like a balloon...

Look, if you are correct that only gravity allows a tire to droop farther with a revolver shackle, then the obvious conclusion is there is no weight of the truck exerted at that wheel. Which means there's no useable traction, because there's no weight other than just the weight of the tire.

I can't help it if you can't take your OWN reasoning to its conclusion. Revolvers add flex; they don't add flex with traction. Which means they're virtually useless on the trail, and are only good for photo shoots and the before-mentioned RTI ramp.

You do realize you contradicted yourself with those two statements now in bold.

articulation is what the RTI ramp scores

Furthermore Traction is based on weight distribution and trust angle, the revolver, un-flexed will give you a better thrust angle with less drive line angle verus a standard lift shackle.

No, I didn't. You didn't comprehend what I was saying.

1) if you want flex, buy a better leaf pack.

2) if all you want to do is score high on an RTI ramp, buy revolvers.

3) don't waste your money on gimmick items that don't give you any more meaningful traction with your flex.

Is that a little more clear for 'ya, or will I have to paint 'ya a picture, too.../

So, let me see.

If a high score on a RTI ramp = Revolvers,
and a RTI ramp is for articulation,
and articulation = flex, which is also = to a good leaf pack, would not one want both?

oooh!

and if flex=muscles
and muscles=women
and women=evil
THEN REVOLVERS=EVIL!

However, that also means revolvers equal two women minus muscles...
TJ, is this true? are you gettin' crazy amounts of limp vag with them? I'll take a set if so.

OK - Revolvers help you get evil women?



Look, you make statements that the drooped tire has no traction...but they are based upon nothing.

In fact, at the same point in droop, the Revolver droop has MORE - not less traction.

Explaination:

ALL drooping tires, regardless of suspension, are dropping because the weight of the axle is pulling them down...the truck is NOT getting lighter, so it drops because the truck is rising with the terrain...or it drops because the ground is falling away under the tire, and the tire is falling into the depression/following the terrain down due to gravity.

All suspensions are supporting the weight of the truck in total....with 4 tires.

When one tire is lower, the other three (etc...) are reproportioned, as the weight is diverted to the other tires.

Once the truck's weight is supported at one corner, at ride height, the amount supported drops as the tire drops....for ALL suspensions.

If that were not true...what forces would explain the tire drooping at all?

The droop of the regular suspension is fighting the leaf pack on the way down once it has dropped lower than its last vestiges of support....which occurs at the point at which you can rattle the shackle, say to change the bushings, etc.

______________

Example:

So - When I drooped a side with my Calmini Lift Shackle...at the point where it had dropped to the neutral zone, ...about where you take out/put in the shackle bushings for example....the tire had only the axle weight to pull it down...as I PASSED that zone, so now the FLEX of the pack was allowing the axle to droop FURTHER...I was loosing traction/weight on the tire...

...As the tire was drooping down, flexing the pack further and further, it had PROGRESSIVELY less weight on the tire...the tire was essentially HANGING from the leaf pack...

...pulling itself down against the resistance of the stiffening leaves.

So - at FULL DROOP, lets say a point where the tire's top was even with the lower wheel well edge...there was NO weight on the tire at all...zero traction...its just hanging there...one more fraction of a mm higher, and its getting air, etc...



Summary - the leaf pack reduces the traction progressively with droop.

______

Same example - with the Revolver:

The suspension supports the weight exactly the same way, and, as the weight is reduced by droop, as the tire follows the terrain, etc...the truck's weight on the tire drops proportionally, exactly like the regular shackle.

When the top of the tire reaches the previous neutral point, the shackle can unfold, and allow the tire to continue to droop, WITHOUT THE TRACTION BEING REDUCED BY THE LEAF PACK PULLING BACK UP ON IT.



So - at the exact same point that the Calmini Shackle had ZERO traction...The Revolver is providing about the same traction the Calmini shackle had at the previous neutral point.

This weight on the tire continues though, and is not reduced as the shackle unfolds...until it too reaches its extended droop limit, exactly like any other shackle...just later/drooped further.

---------

That's how it works....and that's why the uninformed re-hashes of old myths are bunk.

TJ:

One of these days, you're going to actually build a rig that can do something, and you're going to be very, very upset you preached on and on about your gimmick revolver shackle.

Words just bounce off, don't they?



I didn't preach, I explained.

You Preached...no explanation...just re-saying the same myths....a sermon on the evils of revolvers.

But - No counter points to the above "how it works" info.



You're not a dumb guy....I like you, but, this is YOUR plane on the tread mill.

You're right. what i said was rude. I meant to say "build something from scratch", but I was in a fouler mood at that point than I am, now.

I don't see the need to give a counter-point description of how revolvers work, and why they're a bad idea. We've gone through this several times in 3 years; I figured there's no reason to keep saying the same thing over and over and over...

BECAUSE revolvers hinge in the middle, THAT'S why they don't transfer force like regular shackles do. Your problem is you keep thinking the ONLY way a tire can drop down is due to gravity. If it were an independent suspension, that would be true. But it's not. And once you finally figure that out, you'll realize why revolvers CAN'T provide traction once it reaches the droop point that the revolver shackle starts opening up.

Yes, they give you more flex. But you can't do anything with that more flex, because the only traction you have is coming from the weight of the tire when it drops down (with the hinged portion of the revolver), which means it's WORTHLESS offroad.

Does you no good to have a tire on the ground that has no traction. May as well be hanging up in the air than having a pivot hinge that makes it *look* like it can do something, when it actually can't.

Imagine, if you can, how a leaf spring setup works on a live axle. It's essentially a lever and a fulcrum. Push left side up, right side goes down. Not gravity related; force related. This is why a solid axle has MORE traction than an independent suspension, when offroading, because it's not all gravity. When 1 side is pushed up, there's an equal and opposite force pushing down on the other side (good 'ol Newton and his pesky laws). All a regular shackle does is allow the leaf spring a little more "flex", by allowing it to grow in length when it flattens out, and shrink in length when it arches more.

Now look at the revolver shackle setup. When left side gets pushed up, right side gets pushed down. Still has this same effect/result as a normal shackle, when the hinge is not pivoting. When a force pushes from one side, forcing the other down, it forces the shackle to stay closed, and there is no hinge action going on.

Now think of what it actually takes in order to get the hinge to let loose, and the shackle pivot downwards. Since it isn't an equal and opposite force that's pushing the side down, then the only thing you've got going for you, at that point, is the weight of the tire/hub/etc. pulling downwards. This is what causes the shackle to open up, hinge, and look killer 'cause of all the flex.

But it's not useable flex. The weight of a tire/rim/etc. alone is not enough to get traction to move a rig forward. It takes more downwards force than that. Essentially all you end up with with a Revolver is that in times when you would ordinarily have a tire hanging up in the air w/ regular shackles, you'll now have it sitting on the ground. But in neither situation do you have any useable traction.

So let's look at my recommended advice: get a real leaf spring that can flex to the limits you're wanting. Why would this give you useable traction with the flex?? Simple. Because when left side gets pushed up, it gives an equal and opposite force going down on right side. So you actually have traction due to more than just gravity.

So seriously, do we really have to go over this every 3-6 months or so? I can't explain simple physics to you any easier/simplier than this. There are 3 Newton's Laws. 2 of 'em apply to the spring setup. In a regular shackle case, you get the benefit of both of 'em. In a revolver, you get both of 'em up to the point that the revolver opens up, in which case you only get 1 law working for you. And gravity alone on a tire isn't giving you enough traction to do anything with it.

So I reiterate. If you want to look pretty on an RTI ramp, get revolvers. If you want flex that has a purpose (traction), get a real leaf pack.

Well if that's the case, then run airshocks to maximize traction. The airshocks can be setup to transfer the air ( stock setup, one inlet) when wheeling and can be split ( separate inlets) for on road to work like a swaybar.
I've used this setup for years with great sucess. I have ran them with stock springs and a custom pack. I've also ran them with and without a locker.
Just remember that not everyone is turning there rig into the hardcore wheelers or every will. So for those that don't want to order custom springs or add a locker, but want more, they work. Just ask the people that USE them

porsche,
What is your thought on the 2nd part of the revolver? The part that allows the leaf springs to twist. Do you see any disadvantage of this? Because this is another thing the revolvers do, that traditional shackles don't.

just another yahoo with absolutely no business dispensing advice.

"Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened [read] to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "

Twisting could only help. Leaf springs bind pretty bad when they're drooped to their lowest spot.

Orbit Eye springs allow for this rotation as well.

I was warned not to combined a front orbit eye with revolvers. A tech at Alcon springs adviced me against it on a street truck. It leaves the rear with no real lateral support. I was considering it at first when I order my new springs, not now.

Porshy - you keep missing the same point...I thought you were getting close to getting it in your own re-statement, as you added some words...but, you still missed it.

The tire droops AT first due to the down force of the suspension...I do believe that part is well understood.

The part you forget/didn't notice...is that AFTER the suspension is no longer pushing down...which happens BEFORE FULL DROOP...the TIRE/AXLE is what is pulling the tire down to droop further...and the leaves are pulling UP on the axle...REDUCING the weight on the tire.

As long as there is supported weight of the truck on the tire, the revolver is folded....and the leaf pack and shackle work as a normal one do.

When the tire is UNWEIGHTED by the TRUCK...the tire can droop...and, it will do so exactly like a regular tire droops...same physics.

So - once a corner is unweighted, either due to the terrain falling away, or, other corners being more weighted/lifted by the terrain rising, etc...the tire will try to stay sitting on the ground, while the suspension lengthens its reach.

On a regular suspension, when unweighted...the shackle swings, and, gravity pulls down the axle, and the leaves arch deeper, dropping the tire further...

..but, the further you droop the tire, the more and more resistance is pulling it back up...as the leaf gets too arched to go any further...and, finally the tire hangs.

On the Revolver, same sequence, except it can let the suspension lengthen a bit more, and does NOT pull up on the tire on the way down...so that the tire has MORE weight on it.

This is the critical part you're missing...

...a Revolver drooped tire is attached to the axle, and the leaf pack is under the axle...so - the weight on a drooped tire is the FULL weight of that half of the axle, leaf pack and tire.

...a Std shackled drooped tire has the same weight on it, but, that weight is REDUCED because the leaf pack is pulling UP on it.

...So the Revolver tire has MORE weight on it, not less...and therefore MORE traction, NOT less.

_________

You seem to think a revolver drooped tire has no traction...I think you think that because its been a long standing myth that's been repeated for years...but never thought long enough about WHAT weight we're talking about...the unsprung weight that provides ALL suspensions with traction ...once the tire has drooped past the suspension's neutral point.

_________________

The neutral point is where the unweighting occurs...with the best example being where you jack it up to change the shackles...that point right between supporting weight, and free fall.

__________________

Once you hit free fall, the Revolvers lets it drop with its FULL Weight... the std shackle set-up fights the droop as the leaf bends ... letting it drop with LESS WEIGHT.

________________

The plane takes off, trust me.



I've gone over stuff with the Revolvers open, and they DEFINETLY provide traction...the tires DO NOT magically spin despite being pressed against the ground hard enough to grab.

____________

Example 2 -

If it were a coil suspension, instead of a leaf pack...and the tire drooped past the coil's range (Like where the coil was at full length, and the axle was dropping further due to its own weight...

Are you telling me my jeep's coil sprung live axle leaves my tires with zero traction when the coil is at full length?

Yeah - we use our leaves for lateral stability...no coils/links for us.

People with Orbit Eyes like the extra flex relief...it really does let the pack twist with less strain on the leaves...works great.

The Revolvers do a similar function, as the central joint can articulate to relieve leaf strain as well.

Having BOTH is overkill, as either provides more than enough stress relief when the pack is articulated.

I looked at both options...the Orbit Eyes are not really DD type solutions, unless your mileage is not too high (I drive ALOT)...and they'll wear out under that kind of use a bit faster than I wanted.

Some freinds did get them though, and love'm.

Yes. That is EXACTLY what I'm telling you.

Because if it's truly, fully maxed out, to the point the vehicles weight is not pushing down at that corner any-what-so-ever, then no, you have no traction at that corner. All the tire is doing is APPEARING to have traction, since it's lightly touching the ground. But if you hit the gas, and you have open diffs, that wheel will spin like there's no tomorrow, and you'll go nowhere. And if you have a locker, that wheel will turn at the same rate as the tire that does have traction, and if that tire has enough traction to get you through, then you're going to believe they both had traction. But they didn't.

The one that was dangling had no traction, whatsoever. The weight of the tire/wheel assembly alone is not going to get you anywhere, at anytime. May as well have that tire sitting on ice, 'cause it's not doing a dyam thing for you. It's just dangling.

Wow. You completely mis-interpreted what I said. Again. For the upteenth time, as simple as I can give it to ya'...

If your tire's dangling, it has no traction.

Only way to get revolvers to unload is if the tire's dangling.

Dangling = No traction.

Got it, yet??

I'm guessing no. But go ahead and keep rephrasing what I say if it makes you feel better. By all means, let's make this go on and on and on and on and...



I hear your argument, but it's flawed. Revolvers don't open up until ALL the weight of the truck is off them. That's the only way a tire can dangle down... What you're arguing by saying the leaf spring doesn't pull up as much, blah blah, doesn't really matter. Because by the time the tire has started to dangle, aka, revolver opening up, it's already past the point where the truck's weight is off that corner.

You can't have any weight of the vehicle being supported when the revolver unloads; it's a physical impossibility, since it's a free hinge. So if it unloads, there's no weight of the rig at that corner, so there's no more traction available than the paltry amount that you get from having the tire & hub assembly sitting on the ground.

Which isn't going to be enough to matter one iota.

Tell you what. Go take your truck to somewhere you can dangle a tire. Turn off your ARB locker and put it into 2WD (so we can see for certain if there's any traction at that tire, and not just your front axle pulling you through). Then prov,e with a video, that the amount of traction at that tire will let you actually do something other than spin.

Do the video camera man a favor, though, and have him stand to the side of the truck. I wouldn't want any of the dirt/rocks that you are going to kick up with your rooster tail to injure him/her. It wouldn't be very nice of you to not warn them ahead of time.

And, if by some miracle you figure out how to disprove one of Newton's Laws, I'll buy you a beer, and never argue with you on this ever again.

You've failed to see that the same thing happens to a drooped tire on a truck w/o a revolver...at full droop, when both suspensions are hanging from the mounts....neither has traction then.

I am talking about the POINT that the regular shackle has allowed full droop...lets say X inches down.

The regular shackle DOES have no weight on the tire at that POINT.

The Revolver Shackled tire will still have SOME weight on it at the SAME X inches of droop, and a bit further down as well.

You keep missing that.

I've had OEM Shackles, then Calmini Shackles, then Revolver Shackles...I've seen the differences.

Its not like I have no basis for comparison.



Try thinking about it....I have, it makes a difference.

That's right folks. DISREGARD all of the major 4x4 publications who hve universally maligned revolver shackles. Listen to TJ and go buy 'em.

Which publications? Everything I found online, had nothing but good reviews for them. Well there was one article I found that didn't like them. But when I was doing my research, I found most 4x4 publications spoke highly of the revolvers.

LOL - Petersons JUST listed them in their Mods that Work section of the magazine.

Universally? LOL

And yeah, the reviews are positive, not negative. That's reviews, people who tried them out, and reported to the public...not mere parroting of myths without a test.

The only universal seems to be Jeff's fondness for the used car salesman jpg he posts as if it means something, other than that he disagrees...or, more often, wants to jump in to make trouble/take an adversarial stance for the fun of it.



Rather than more unfounded myths, how about some experiments or something concrete to refer to?

Call people names, insult people, all personal attacks...

What about the facts?

One article from JP that ALSO says JEFF'S steel bumper is ALSO a wasted mod, is hardly either an authoritative source or universal....given that it was a throw-away joke article (fill).

I'm giving explainations...you're attacking the messenger.

If the message is vulnerable...show why...give explanations that make some sense...or...just keep posting used car sales man pics.

:rolleyes:

Besides...its not like I'm selling them or anything....I'm not even saying everyone should buy them, any more than I say they should all buy Bilstein 7100's, etc...

...its for people who want to get some more articulation w/o buying a flexier, higher lift spring pack...or buying even longer lift shackles that might exacerbate reverse arching, etc.

I think Carlton? posted his droop with the flexy pack option..it was about the same as the Revolver droop IIRC, I forget which thread...we compared in it.



I was trying to get across here that all tire droop past the neutral point in the suspension is subject to the same forces...and, a leaf pack that has to bend and be pulled into more droop arch, simply doesn't put more weight on a tire that a tire drooping without that resistance.



If someone can point out a reasonable physical explanation for the leaf pulling up more, making the tire push down more...I'll listen.

No, the Revolver can't still have "a bit further down". At the point the revolver is at the same level of flex as the maxed out regular shackle, ie the point that the revolver starts to open up, that's it for traction in both cases. The fact that the revolver opens up and lets the tire literally fall lower doesn't mean it has magically created more traction; it just means it LOOKS like there's more traction, 'cause the tire is touching the ground instead of hanging in the air.

But the point is, a revolver doesn't open up until there's no more weight of the vehicle on the spring. Which means the only time it opens up is during the time there is NO ADDITIONAL TRACTION AVAILABLE, no matter whether the tire dangles in mid-air, or actually gets to take a rest by lightly touching the ground.

There is no traction available from the tire once it's reached the point the revolver starts to open up. The exact second the revolver starts to open up is the least amount of traction available from that tire. No, it doesn't get any worse as it dangles on down, but it doesn't magically get any better, either. At the point it starts to open, traction is next to 0. And as it dangles, it's still next to 0.

Which is why I say get a real spring pack that gives you the same flex point as what the revolver will get you, if you really feel you need that much flex. Because at the final point of full flex, neither the revolver nor the leaf will have any traction. But everywhere on the way down, the leaf pack version will have traction, whereas the revolver stopped having traction from the moment it started to open up.

You get flex w/ revolvers. You don't get traction. The added flex is useless unless you get traction along with it.

Seriously. Go make your video, and silence us "uninformed doubters". I challenge you to prove they work with something other than your illogical ponderings.

I've been reading this thread and have not really seen this point discussed and I'm curious what you have to say about it.
Take a rear axel completely removed from the truck so there is no weight placed on the springs.
Place one wheel on a brick, tie a piece of string, with a weight gauge to the wheel on the other side and lift it so the axel is horizontal. Measure the weight on the gauge, I have no idea what it is but lets say 200lbs.
Now put the axel back in the truck but only connect one leaf spring. Put a brick under the wheel on the side with the leaf spring connected. Now lift the side without the leaf spring with the string and gauge. The weight measured will be more than the 200lbs measured in the first case because we now have a second class lever.

So the downward force on a drooping tire on the ground is made up of the following
Gravity
Shocks
Force from spring (+body weight) on the drooping side, this will become negative at some point
Force from spring (+body weight) on the stuffed side, this will eventually come to 0 (tire to ground) when you hit the bump stop.

Now if we get to full extension and unbolt the axel from the spring pearch and measure the force between the axel and body and between spring pearch and body, what would we measure? And what does it mean?

Richard

'Nother post for emphasis..



Pay careful attention. I'll speak slowly so TJ can understand.

Q. What happens to the leaf spring of this flexed Revolver suspension when the tire first gets pushed up into the wheel well, from this position?

A. For the first couple inches, there is very little resistance as the revolver is folding up. The spring is not starting to compress until after the revolver is folded back neatly into place.

Q. If there were a normal shackle in that photo, what would happen as soon as the tire started being pushed up into place?

A. The leaf spring would begin compressing instantaneously, providing a resistant force.

Q. How does a leaf spring work?

A. When a force is applied, either upwards or downwards, a spring flexes based on it's spring constant, to resist the force.

Q. If the leaf spring does not compress, as the tire was raised, was any force being resisted?

A. No. It was dangling in it's natural state.

Q. How is traction generated?

A. It's the normal force (perpendicular) to the ground, multiplied by the friction coefficient of the two surfaces.

Q. What would the traction (aka, friction) be as soon as the tire began to be compressed in the revolver situation as in that picture?

A. The weight of the tire, hub, axle, etc. multiplied by the friction coefficient between the tire & the surface. Until the revolver is folded back onto itself, there is no additional force acting downward on the spring.

Q. What would the normal force be in the normal shackle situation as soon as the tire began to be compressed?

A. It would be the weight of the tire, hub, axle, etc., PLUS the force provided by the spring,. all of that multiplied by the friction coefficient.

Q. Wouldn't the force of the spring be acting negatively (if down is positive) on the assemblies, therefore negating the regular spring advantage?

A. Yes, but no. Yes, the math of it would show the spring would technically be pulling the axle assembly upwards, therefore a reduction in traction from the total. However, since the spring is still connected to the revolver, the revolver can't actually droop w/o taking the spring properties into effect. So at the point the revolver starts opening, it has already reached the maximum up-pull of the leaf spring. Therefore, it's already at it's lowest amount of traction available in the equation. It does not change at any point in the revolver travel.

So for example, if the spring was pulling -5 lbs of force (remember, up is negative), it reaches that -5 lbs at the exact instant the revolver begins to open up. Whether the revolver is open 0" to 3", the same 5 lbs are pulling up. But on the regular leaf suspension that flexes to the same point, the full -5 lbs of pull is only at the lowest point, aka, the equivalent of the 3" open revolver. As soon as the regular shackle leaf pack begins compressing, this -5 lbs of pull begins to reduce to 0.

So no, the spring will not negate the advantage of the regular spring. Both a revolver and the leaf pack have the most amount of traction at the point the spring force is 0. However, the revolver will not even start to begin to reach that point until after it has already closed together.

Conclusion:

Through the handy-dandy method of linearity, you can move the origin of force for the spring pack down to the most fully open position (fully flexed out) of the wheel, and begin from there. This makes it easier to visualize (except for TJ, which will probably argue this point, though he would be wrong to do so. This is simple statics/dynamics at work, here, and the calculations/rules for doing this are taught in 100 level engineering classes; in other words, it ain't rocket science.)

Once you do this, you will find the revolver doesn't start adding traction from the spring until it's fully closed, but the regular leaf spring starts adding traction from the moment it starts compressing.

In other words, and one more time for those that have fallen asleep:

IF YOU WANT FLEX WITH TRACTION, GET A REAL LEAF PACK. IF YOU WANT FLEX FOR AN RTI RAMP, USE REVOLVERS.

Hell, no one's probably awake anymore anyway.

I do appreciate that you at least expressed what you were trying to get across though.

(For the rest of you, I'll type quietly to avoid waking anyone...)

OK - I think it comes down to a difference in opinion/experiences....I've measured and observed, and know what's important to me, and how it really works.

We essentially are only really at odds about the narrow range - about 3" of travel, where your leaf has a faint push left, and then hangs the tire..and mine had the same several hundred pounds of down force all the way through, and down a bit more...and you prefer the faint push of the almost fully extended leaf plus axle/tire...and I prefer the weight of the axle/tire /leaves, through the same point, w/o a reduction in weight against the leaves...

You'd like a little more weight/followed by progressively less, and I'd prefer a little less at first, and more later.

eh.

Maybe its just subjective.

It works on the Jeeps and Toys, and now the X...and for me.

It doesn't do what you're ("Yes and No") calculations would indicate, mostly because of the way you applied them.

So - You are correct in some assumptions...its not like you're nutz...its just that you over estimated the actual effects that do occur.

If I had to do it over again, sure, in a heart beat.

Would I advize everyone to do it? - Only if they are willing to set up a long travel suspension properly, especially if limited in flex by needing stiff spring packs for support/street sharpness, etc.

Same advice for ANY long travel suspension mod, including leaves that can give the same flex, etc.



Think about shackle swing...its missing from all of your above concepts...and, its about as close to Revolver behavior as you're going to get (Unless you are now running out to get Revolvers...)




OK - the rest of you can wake up now...)

Here is that video you requested.

Revolver opening untill wheel spin - open dif.

The revolver opens in a very linear fashion starting with the front wheel lifted only about one foot. When the wheel spins the front tire is 31" higher than the ground.

As you can see in the video there was no point where the revolver rapidly unloaded. In fact the wheel spin only happened right before the wheel was ready to lift off the ground. After the wheel did spin I put the truckin 4x4 to see how much more it would take to lift the tire and the rear tire was in the air before the front was 32" off the ground.

I am trying to arrange a time to get the X on a freight scale so that I can graph the exact height/weight comparison of the OEM and the Revolver shackles.

Thank you for showing that video. Doesn't address what I was hoping to see completely (in the conditions; not in what happened. Now do that in a situation where one tire is compressed, and the other is flexed, and that'd be the situation I was hoping to see. I claim that will increase the wheel spin that happened in the video, and at an earlier point as well), but at least it's an attempt in the right direction to settle the discussion, instead of TJ and my BS.

Porsche, I am not trying to be thick here but I do not understand what situation you want to see. The passenger side was completely compressed to the bumpstop and the driver side was drooped to the point of slipping. If you are asking for me to back up the ramp with one tire untill one tire slips I can film that as well. I really don't think it will show as much as this did though.

Just describe exactly what you want to see that I can reproduce in a controlled environment and I will try to show it.

I think the most ignored fact in why I feel revolvers are helpfull comes from the lever effect of the rear axle. The spring and bumpstop act as a fulcrum with about 1/6 the length of the lever (axle) on the compressed side and the rest on the drooped side. Basicly you have a see saw with one side being about 10 inches long and the other being 60 inches long. For the sake of easy math lets say that 1800 lbs is sitting on the compressed side, 1/6 that or 300 lbs is pushing the opposite side against the ground untill it is restricted by the limits of the shackle/spring on the drooped side at which time those same forces are being applied to that hardware. This is why you still have traction on the drooped side untill it is ready to lift off the ground (when it has no more droop left.) While you are losing traction from the 50/50 dispersion of level ground, you should still have roughly 16% of the total load on the rear axle providing traction to the drooped tire until the hardware is holding back this 1/6 of the rear axle load (causing the tire to begin to lift.)

The article that I saw was in Four Wheeler magazine about 3 1/2 years ago. I couldn't find it posted online. They also make the vehicle more prone to rollovers (lotsa info on that one).

I have seen at least 2 other articles denouncing them, but don't have 'em anymore. (I do not put any stock posted in "Peterson's Redneck Bling" articles)

Jp doesn't like 'em:

http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/trail/154_0704_lamest_4x4_products_ever/index.html

The guys at Pirate: "..They are for ramp fags.."

S10 Extremists don't like 'em: "...They really aren\'t any good for anything but ramp champs...."

....

All publications/conjecture aside, the bottom line is Physics. If your body weight is not enough traction to push the vehicle out by hand, the weight of half your axle (-w-wheel) ain't either. They may help on occasion, but not when you need real traction. They ruin leaf springs and frame mounts and increase the chance of both highway and trail rollovers.

Go down to Independence in Penrose and find ONE, just one person with revolver shackles. You won't.

The passenger side revolver is opened up partially the whole time in the video. Is there something I'm missing about that side that keeps it from closing up all the way at full compression??

WOW, This really is some good reading. Maybe a little redundant here and there, but I never gave the issue so much thought. Trust me , I'm no physics major and I'm still kind of new to the whole 4WD thing. How much differance are we talking about here at the point of traction loss? Are we splitting hairs?
I think the truck would roll before it reached this point, but the further down the tire and axle hung, doesn't the wieght of it increase therefore acting a little like a counter balance that would potentially prevent rolling until the driver could correct?
If there's a question of traction, the vehicle wieght is transfered from the drooping tire to ...where? the opposing tire? the front of the truck? Are not 3 tires effective in most situations? If the wieght is shifted to the compressed tire, doesn't that improve traction on that tire?
If Articulation=Droop
Droop= Loss of traction
Loss of traction = BAD
could that logic be carried to the front end?
SAS=Articulation
Articulation=Droop...Etc.,etc.
Really, I am learning a lot here. Sadly I'm on a gov't computer that won't allow me to view the video, but I will at the first oppertunity.
In general, I agree that traction is definetly lost at or just before the Revolver opens (see picture below) But, in my expieriance, with front and rear lockers, I get all the traction I need...Ofcourse, there aren't too many 'serious' trails around here and finding a good rock garden isn't always easy :rolleyes:


VAXC PIX

Jeff - the references to the myriad of myth re-posts are not reviews, merely a re-hash of the myths themselves...mostly threads like this one, that you're reading in fact.

Here's a quick google for reviews:

http://behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page_13.html

http://www.bc4x4.com/pv/yj/revolvers/

http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=259355

http://behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page14.html

http://behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page16.html

http://www.4x4review.com/products/suspension/revolver-movie.mpg

http://www.4x4review.com/products/suspension/revolver.asp

Yeah - ALL suspensions eventually reach their limit of extension, and hang the tire.

So - the question is - How much wheel travel is too much?

Some people want a stiff suspension and 4 lockers, and just count on the one tire's traction to be enough to propel them, and the center of gravity to be low enough to prevent rolls, yet high enough to have adequate ground clearance, etc.

A front coil sprung live axle for example is normaly considered better than a T-Bar sprung IFS.

The T-Bar sprung IFS provides down force throughout its range of droop motion.

The Coiled Live Axle provides initial downforce, and then relies upon gravity for the remainder of the droop range.

Having mostly jeep experience...I'm going to go out on a limb here, and express my impression that a coiled live axle is better than a T-Bar'd IFS for traction and stability.

That is DESPITE the coiled live axle NOT providing spring down force for the last part of its its droop range.

According to Jeff and Porshe, the IFS is going to have traction, and the Coiled Live Axle is for Ramp Fags, as it has no real traction once the coil reaches its full length, and the axle is merely drooping due to gravity.

They claim a "drooped by gravity" live axle has "Zero Traction" once the coil or leaf pack is no longer pushing it down.

(I think the faint amount of spring push at the limits of down travel are not that meaningful anyway, even before the spring loses all force...so the last end of the travel range is not significant anyway on the way down either. (Or the T-Bar would be a hot ticket....etc)...so that its spring force is more academic than important at the bottom of down travel.)

I think the small amount of down force left in a leaf spring at the bottom of its down travel is soon negated by the up forces imposed when the leaf spring has to bend more, PULLED DOWN BY the tire, etc...INSTEAD OF the leaf pushing down the tire.

I think Shackle swing is a good thing that adds wheel travel...they seem to feel that a shackle should be a solid bar welded to the leaf end - as swing means the leaf pack is "disconnected" and therefore has "Zero Traction".

So - We disagree as to the value of a "drooped by gravity" live axle....I like'm, they hate'm.

It seems to me that the point has been proven in the video. The open-diff 2wd Xterra was pushed up the ramp untill the tire was about to lift... At that point it spun. Then when he put it in 4wd(not shown in the video) and went another couple of inches up the ramp the tire was OFF the ground... Only THEN(when it came to the LAST couple of inches) did the drooped tire stop providing enough traction to drive the X up the ramp farther.

Also note that the revolver started to open as soon as he started up the ramp. The other side was never unfolded. If it looks like that in the video it's an illusion.

Bottom line is that too many guys have posted real world experiance with the revolvers that like them. And even a video that PROVES their point.
Others are posting regurgitated info.(with no personal experiance)

If what the naysayers is correct then in that video the tire SHOULD have started to spin as soon as the shackle started to unfold. That didn't happen. End of story.

Maybe it would be clearer if mmniac did the same thing. Only this time with tape or spray paint to mark the spot where the tire spun. Then secrure the shackle so it can not unfold, do the drive up the ramp again, then mark the spot were the tire spins.
I think you'd see a remarkable difference in how far up the ramp the X will go.

This is the exact position of the Xterra at the end of the video on page 3 of this thread. This is the point of wheel spin.


Here is a picture of the revolver in the fully closed position. Notice that the pivot shaft is fully seated in the white saddle. It is physically impossible for it to close more than this and this is why the passenger side shackle may "apear" to be partially open in the video.


Here is the revolver fully opened - this is the exact point of wheel spin and immediately prior to the tire lifting off the pavement.


I appologize for the quality of the pictures and the video. It was all taken with my phone. I hope this helps someone.

If I did not believe the shackles work for me providing both traction and flex they would be gone, no if ands ors or buts. I have nothing to gain or lose if anyone else decides to run or not to run Revolvers.

Whatever, man.

We have explained the drawback of revolvers as well as the fact that they do not provide "useful" flex. You have not adequately replied despite the length of your posts. Come out to a real hardcore trail and count how many pairs of revolver shackles you see.

Facts:

revolver shackles...

...increase chances of rollovers
...ruin leaf springs
...destroy spring hangers

I'm done with this subject because TJ has a neverending stream of bvllshit and propaganda to endorse what's on his rig. Hopefully nobody rolls or damages their rig because they listened to him.

Way to rehash the same BS Jeff, just ignore the evidence, and keep repeating the same incorrect info.



You should take an example from Porshe - he discusses the issues, and if we disagree, that's fine, I still respect his maturity.

PS - I assume you will now remove your SAS, as according to your premise, its a Ramp Fag mod.

NO IT CANT BE OVER.............. I STILL HAVE PEANUTS AND BEER LEFT!!!!!!

Alright, I really hate to jump into this but I need something clarified for myself.

More acrticulation generally means more droop, more traction, more stability on the trail, right? (To a point, of course, as there are always exremes we are not going to talk about).

RTI ramp scores are ultimately dependant on articulation and traction of the rig, true?

So, if a rig gets high RTI scores it means that it can artululate well, keep tires on the ground with traction and be stable. Given that, my logic is that the rig should be stable in most offroad cituations, no more or less than any other rig with a similar COG and suspension setup. No?

Granted no offroad cituation is the same, there are always variations and there are always risks so it's hard to precicely test the revolvers.

Am I off with my logic, maybe?

Only a little off - The RTI is more about being able to keep the tires on the ground...there really is no traction aspect per se, other than what ever tires are involved DO require enough traction to push/pull the truck up the ramp.

Its about uptravel too for example...if the upside can't stuff enough, it actually prevents further ramp travel as it jams, etc...which can even hinder the free/drooped tire from providing enough traction, etc.



So - the concept is essentially correct, in that tires on the ground at least have the opportunity to provide traction and stability...and a dangling/hung tire is is generally unable to prove traction or stability.

That is WHY the RTI became a popular way of measuring a rig's articulation, as it was a good predictor of trail performance in that regard.

Its not perfect of course, but on rocks at least, its got a pretty good record of good trail articulation rigs doing well on RTI scores, etc.

As for testing - the concept was presented as theorizing that traction drops to zero as soon as the revolver STARTS to unfold...as that was the theoretical loss of weight on the tire.

As SHOWN, the theory was incorrect, as the tire DID NOT lose traction when the Revolver STARTED to unfold, nor did it lose traction further down when almost completely unfolded...

...it MAINTAINED traction until it reached the end of its reach...just like a regular shackled suspension would.



So - it was PROVEN in the video that the Revolvers do not do what the incorrect myths claimed they would...they in fact did what the people who HAVE them say they do.

Hey Kev, pass the beer!

Yep. The revolvers did exactly as they are designed to do.

They allowed someone to go up a ramp on asphalt pavement, without losing traction....

Come to think of it, I've never seen a vehicle lose traction on asphalt pavement, when they weren't going faster than a very slow crawl. Hmmm... Coincidence? Or is it that asphalt pavement has a friction coefficient around 0.8... whereas dirt has a friction coeff. of around 0.3... Hmm.......

Not to be a dick or anything, but the video only proves what I've been saying... Want a high RTI score, get revolvers.

It has yet to prove anything about how they'll handle offroad.



(there. break back out the popcorn and beer you freeloading bystanders...)

PS - I do understand how the myths got started...just like any mod, people do lifts, get axle wrap or driveline vibes, death wobble or what ever...typically not because a lift causes that per se, but because their shocks were not properly valved, or their pinion angles were too severe to handle it, etc....essentially they did not do all the things needed to compensate for the lift.

They then claim the lift caused the death wobble or the axle wrap, and angrily take it back off....instead of fixing the underlying deficiency such as the shocks, etc.

So - that's how these things get started...its human nature.

The important thing is to keep an open mind, as Porshe did.

He considered the situation, came up with a reasonable experiment to prove/disprove his hypothesis...he was open minded about it.

When it becomes about being right or wrong, and not about establishing the facts/finding the truth...nothing is accomplished.

Its the difference between a discussion, and a pissing match.

Porche did not lose a pissing match, he was discussing the situation....as he suggested the experiment, and it was his video solution that proved the facts.

Porshe solved the question with the video concept...and thankfully, allowed the "No Weight on the Drooped Tire" Revolver Myth to Die.



(Can't find a "Hats off to You" emoticon)

Ahhhh the saga continues.

Wasn't "my" video that "solved" it. Somebody else posted the video.

And for the love of god, quite spelling PORSCHE wrong you bastage.

Porshy -

Well, you came up with the idea.

MMNIAC delivered the requested experiment though.

The slippage did not occur until the tire was essentially hung, not as soon as the revolver started to unfold...

....as you explained, the proof of concept was if the slippage occured as soon as it STARTED to unfold...as from that point onwards, there would have been no difference in traction, if the myth had been true.

As the slippage only occured as the tire lost ground contact...and NOT upon initial unfolding....in fact, pretty much about when all suspensions let a tire spin...it proved that the concept of loss of weight/traction upon initial unfolding was false.



OK - One myth BUSTED.

Now, about the rest of them....

Stress on the leaves and hangers.

This should be easier at least for most people.

The claim is that the extra rotation the leaf pack can move through stresses the leaves and hangers.

OK - if I take a regular suspension leaf pack, and twist it in the middle, it transmits this force to the front and rear..the front leaf hanger, and the rear shackle, and through the rear shackle, to the rear shackle hanger...as these points are more or less fixed, the leaf is bent/twisted, and has tension on it...as it is the only mobile part.

This is the normal way its done...and we've all done it...fine so far.

Now, lets make the rear shackle able to give/rotate with the leaf.

I twist the leaf, and the front hanger has forces transmitted to it...and the rear revolver shackle has forces transmitted to it....so far, the same as for a regular shackled suspension.

Ok, I twist the rear revolver with the leaf, and it just rotates with it...so the leaf is not bending, and the tension is relieved...and no twist is transmitted to the hanger at all, as the rotation eliminated the tension.

So - the leaf is under LESS tension, and the rear hanger is under LESS tension....that's great...no damage likely there.

What about the front hanger? Its the same fixed design as the regular suspension...can't it be damaged?

Well - its as vulnerable as it was before the Revolver went on the other end...and, as the leaf itself is not being twisted as hard, it has LESS stress on it as well.

What if the Revolver allows the leaf to twist FURTHER than it would with a regular shackle?

OK - this is quite likely. The parallel situation is if a flexy spring pack were installed instead of a stiffer pack with Revolvers...as a flexy spring pack and lift shackles has about the same travel as a stiffer pack with Revolvers.

So - the answer is that the front would get twisted as FAR as it would with a flexy pack and no revolver, but not as hard, as the tension is relieved by the Revolver at the other end.

One situation is turning a screw driver to drive in a screw with your hand, turning the screwdriver a half turn...

...The other is like putting the handle of the screwdriver into a rubber hose, and turning the hose a half turn...

Its still 180 degrees, but the forces are transmitted into the hose, which is easier to twist...relieving the tension....

...and, with the hose being turned, the force on the screw to twist it into the wood or whatever, is greatly reduced...

As the screw into the wood is the equivalent of the force on the front hanger...you can see its more gentle.

Because I have not heard reports of undue front hanger breakage on rigs with flexy leaf packs, or on front hangers on rigs with rear Orbit Eye mounts...a similar flex inducer, it seems that the small additional degree of rotation involved would not be of special concern.

Of course, I HAVE seen and heard of front hanger LEAF breakage on several X's...including a few that did not know the leaf had broken inside the hanger...as the ends were still captive, etc...

So, that happened on OEM suspensions, and on PML, and 3" SL's, so far...in a few cases.

IF it WERE to occur on a Revolver equipped rig (It has not happened yet though as far as I know....), it would not be a Revolver specific issue, perhaps the previously discussed Nisan leaf metal issue, etc.

I have also heard of rear shackle mounts breaking, and rear shackles breaking, on non-Revolver equipped rigs...so, while it DOES happen, it is not a Revolver specific problem either.

I did hear about one (1) guy who needed to repair a Revolver Shackle, I believe he upgraded the block the shackle folds onto from what it came with. The new ones seem fine in that regard.

So - there is no sound basis for the Revolver to damage the leaves, or the hangers, or atleast, no more than any other flexy suspension, and probably a lot LESS likely than a conventional suspension.

Porsche - do you concur?

Here for your viewing pleasure is the same Xterra, on the same loading dock, again in 4x2 and unlocked, but this time with a solid shackle of the exact same length as the closed revolver.

Solid shackle - same ramp

Revolver - same video as page 3

The Revolver let me go an extra 26 inches forward on the loading ramp. This is a gain of 4 inches in vertical travel before the wheel spins. This is real world but under controlled conditions.

Since this is a side by side comparison with all conditions being equal with the exception of the shackle I think it is hard to refute the results.

Both tests were done in 2 wheel drive so you can compare for yourself how the revolver does provide some degree of usefull traction enhancing droop.

End of Thread now?

Nope.....

I heard that buying revolvers has a negative impact on your karma with the Jeep owners around you but a positive impact on the Yota owners around you.

Discus..... :p

Absolutely not correct. I have videos to prove that this is not the case. I can prove that having revolvers on makes you balls droop lower thus providing more shock value when you're trying to get laid with a one-night-stand. With 4 more inches of additional droop at the left nut the right one articulates just enough to achieve the proper angle of tuckage to get out the way and prevent ball tap when you walk.

Holy crap, Tony, why didn't you tell me sooner?!?!?!?!?

Have you conducted extensive testing to prove this theory or are you just perpetuating more myths?
I really DONT want to see the videos that test this theory.

http://www.behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page25.html

{quote]He has since done a SOA (Spring Over Axle) conversion so no linger is using the RS[/quote]

Awe... He finally got a real leaf pack setup, and ditched the revolvers. Good for him...

I knew you'd like it.

Figure there's a point where doing BOTH long travel mods is getting crazy...the drivetrain work to make a jeep able to get its tires at 180 to the frame are too much to bother with for him for sure...so as he did the SOA for lift...ALSO doing Revolvers would have meant way too many other mods to make it all work, etc.

Anyway - I'm glad the myths are busted at least...thanks for the help.

No mod is perfect for everyone...For me, I need a stiff leaf pack because I carry a shit load of equipment into the boonies for work, etc....and I'd rather have the lower COG than a taller lift...but I also need the articulation to get over crap...so I use the skids to drag over, and the revolver articulation to maintain traction.

The Revolvers let me sit lower than normal, helping to keep the COG down, for the amount of articulation they provide - about like a flexy leafed 3" or a conventional 5" SL, etc....but with enough leaf support to work...a good compromise for me.

If I had tried to get leaves that flexed that much, but could hold up that much weight, I'd have been looking at a very custom pack.



And, since the Revolvers work as they are supposed to, with none of the mythical drawbacks...I'm happy.

Sad, bro.

The physics don't lie. People who have jobs (God forbid! ) don't have time to reply to all 20000 words of your bullsh1t.

The revolvers function as designed. They provide some extra flex and a very small amount grip. They also have all the other drawbacks listed.

I would love to see TJ go on Pirate and tell those dudes how much he loves his revolvers. Or he could come to a real hardcore trail and see how many people run them.

Like I said before, I don't have time to reply to this crap. I will continue to repost the truth:

People with hardcore offroad rig don't run revolvers for a reason. Cut the crap, TJ.

We're still on it?

Jeff, you are back, but with nothing new to say...just the same snippets from people who are the same ones perpetuating the myths...not reviews from people who actually knew about them.

You saw the video, it proves the myths are busted.

You even said you were done...and THIS is your come back, the same post, again?

Look, the physics are what proved the revolvers work...quotes from other guys like you are all you have to argue with the facts.

Once the physics are properly applied, it all works...as it does with the proper application of logic.

So - Revolvers work.

Are they for every one? Of course not, and neither is a SAS.

Do I say doing a SAS is a RTI Fag Mod because it improves the RTI score? Like that's a bad thing?

I didn't ask for a video, Porsche did...I didn't shoot the video, MMNIAC did...

All I did was say that the Myths are false, explain why, and then the visual proof arrived conveniently.

If you don't like it...that's a shame.

Just because a lot of people have blindly repeated the myths for years doeesn't make the Myth true...just a very commonly held, incorrect, belief.

This isn't religeon...this is just people stating what they feel to be the truth.

Some people base their truth on properly interpreted experience and properly applied logic, and others don't, abeit, I'm sure they meant to.

That's why some otherwise intelligent people think the plane can't take off from the tread mill...

...They are SURE they are right, they have arguments that invoke logic, etc...they don't get why you won't see it their way, etc.

If they all talk to each other, they reinforce the belief...If someone disagree's, they get angry that a belief is being challenged...afterall, that's "Already been settled..."

So, I'm not saying everyone has to DO anything...all I wanted was for people to take a fresh look at the issue, and at least have correct info about it.

What to DO with the info is up to THEM.

I don't know why you continue to flail about on this...its been put to bed already by the video evidence, etc.

You are diluting the knowledge base by blindly repeating the myths...it hurts society as a whole when that happens...like that Premium Gas has more power...

....hell that one has never died either...but I can find a ton of people who spout how they are SURE its true, because their pappy told them, and his pappy told him, and ALL his freinds agreed, and Bobby's Camaro beat that Mustang, and so forth...its still a Myth.

The people who HAVE revolvers already knew they worked, and didn't do the bad things "Reported"...but, EVERYONE ELSE said they must be lying....as otherwise, the MYTH was being challenged...

...some Myths die hard, and it would be nice if you just accepted the evidence without feeling like you have to keep spouting the dead myths as sacred beliefs that must be preserved.

Its a shackle...not a religeon.

---------------------------------------------

READER'S DIGEST VERSION OF THE REVOLVER STORY:

If you are doing a longer flexy leaf pack to get lift and articulation, why pay that much for a shackle...a regular lift shackle is fine....you already have a reasonable amount of wheel travel to work with.

If you want to stay low, but have taller lift type wheel travel, the Revolvers give travel without too much lift.

If you are doing a stiff leaf pack...to carry more weight/be more stable, etc...but need the articulation the flexy pack would have provided, the Revolvers work great as a solution.



Pretty much...that's the story.

You're hilarious.

You are comparing an SAS to Revolvers?

As has been stated before, the RTI ramp is neat but does not take into account the coefficients of friction. Had you taken High School Physics 1 you would know that.

The gauntlet has been thrown.

You have been called out.

Go brag on Pirate about your revolver shackles and link us to the replies.

---
Repost:

The physics don't lie. People who have jobs (God forbid! ) don't have time to reply to all 20000 words of your bullsh1t.

The revolvers function as designed. They provide some extra flex and a very small amount grip. They also have all the other drawbacks listed.

I would love to see TJ go on Pirate and tell those dudes how much he loves his revolvers. Or he could come to a real hardcore trail and see how many people run them.

Like I said before, I don't have time to reply to this crap. I will continue to repost the truth:

People with hardcore offroad rig don't run revolvers for a reason. Cut the crap, TJ.

Jeff - you keep re-posting the same posts by people who don't know the truth about revolvers (AS IF THESE people "represent" the parties you awarded them representative status, or know anything about revolvers)

...and the same uninformed joke/filler article...the same one that said steel bumpers were ALSO lame, etc....

From the SAME JP Article you refer to about "Whacky Shackles":

"With all the manufacturing technology available today, we can't understand why anyone would want to replace a good-looking factory bumper with square stock-especially on late-model Jeeps. Buildings, trailers, and farm-animal feeders should be made from square and large-diameter round tube, not Jeep parts."

No cred there for you at all....you're quoting a snippet from an article that was far from serious.



Address the issues...the FACTS were shown, the video proved the Myth was a Myth.

Repeating that the people who don't know how the shackles work STILL don't know, even if there are a lot of them (HENCE the Myth Status...) means nothing relative to the truth.

:rolleyes:

Again -

The people who HAVE revolvers already knew they worked, and didn't do the bad things "Reported"...but, EVERYONE ELSE said they must be lying....as otherwise, the MYTH was being challenged...

...some Myths die hard, and it would be nice if you just accepted the evidence without feeling like you have to keep spouting the dead myths as sacred beliefs that must be preserved.

Its a shackle...not a religeon.

---------------------------------------------

READER'S DIGEST VERSION OF THE REVOLVER STORY:

If you are doing a longer flexy leaf pack to get lift and articulation, why pay that much for a shackle...a regular lift shackle is fine....you already have a reasonable amount of wheel travel to work with.

If you want to stay low, but have taller lift type wheel travel, the Revolvers give travel without too much lift.

If you are doing a stiff leaf pack...to carry more weight/be more stable, etc...but need the articulation the flexy pack would have provided, the Revolvers work great as a solution.



Pretty much...that's the story.

Cool, can ya both just let it die? Jeff, since TJ is so far from what you would consider hard core trails...stop telling him he's gotta come out here to see how many hard core wheelers are running revolvers, it's not going to happen for a long time. Jeff, have you even run your SAS on a trail yet (not being a dick here, this is just the only thread you seem to notice and will reply to). Oh, and stop posting quotes of yourself...makes you seem stupid, and like you have no valid arguments.

TJ, Jeff obviously isn't going to change his mind so stop arguing with him. The fact that neither of you seem to understand what the other is arguing about, makes me laugh. Aside from the bogus crap about rollovers, unloading, etc...Jeff keeps harping about traction when the revolvers unfold...not flex. He makes a good point. Regardless, you two really don't like each other and it's kinda funny, but at the same time it's sad, as neither one of you has had anything new to say in at least a page of posts, but maybe that's just me.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

I know what you mean...its covered, the video proved that unloading doesn't happen, and that the flex gives useful traction, and that the tire is NOT unweighted with zero traction as the Myth would have you believe.

I think Jeff is the only one flailing against the truth, and yes, I don't see him ever seeing how Revolvers work.

He didn't even understand the SAS reference...in that with his SAS, according to the physics propounded by the Myth...once his live axle drooped past the support of his coil spring, he'd have zero traction...exactly like a revolver.

Of course, that's not true, and his SAS improves his traction and stability, that's why live axles are better in the rocks.

So, the principle the Myth argument hinges on falls apart under close scrutiny.

He will never see that though....you're right.

He IS good at baiting me into continuing the discussion though, so he gets points for that.

Thanks for the entertainment guys.

k_enn

Nah. TJ's pages and pages of bullsh1t does not require any additional response. Since he continues to perpetuate this thread I will occasionally repost the same sh1t in case somebody actually believes him.

....

Facts:

revolver shackles...

...increase chances of rollovers
...ruin leaf springs
...destroy spring hangers

Not worth buyin'.

Proof? Anywhere? TJ at least got photographic/video evidence of what he was saying to be true. I've read your links Jeff, and near as I can tell it's all crap.

Jeff, how about Johnny joint style shackle hangers?

Good god... Y'all still can't get off this video "proof" can you...

All the video "proved" was a tire on asphalt has a helluva' lot of traction.

Traction on asphalt is 3 times greater than on dirt. So the tire on dirt will slip long before the tire on asphalt, if all other conditions are the same.

The video shows nothing more than what I said at the very beginning...if you want to look good on an RTI ramp, get revolvers...

Sorry, guys. That video doesn't "prove" anything in the debate. It was a nice try, but it didn't address any offroading conditions, unless your definition of offroading is "mall-crawling over curbs".

Thanks for playing. Please try again.

Ah Crap... Im fucked!!

Sorry Porsche, I thought you got it.

Your premise was that the tire would slip AS SOON AS the revolver opened...as your explaination was that THAT was when the tire became unweighted...

As a control...a regular lift shackle, on the same wheel, slipped sooner.

If this were merely demonstating that asphalt gives good traction....why did the revolver version go further before slipping?

---------------------------------------------

The coefficient of traction for both shackle versions was the same....and the Revolver went further, without slipping, than the regular shackle.

----------------------------------------------

These are facts, not BS.

-----------------------------------------------

Interpretation of these facts does NOT INDICATE A LOSS OF TRACTION on the Revolver side when the shackle OPENED AS THE MYTH CLAIMED IT WOULD.

-----------------------------------------------

Interpretation of these facts does NOT INDICATE that the regular shackle gave more traction.

-----------------------------------------------

The traction surface was the same for both...the only variable was the shackle.......the Revolver went further w/o slipping.

-----------------------------------------------

TRY logic, instead of empty myths.

If you go back to the beginning, I was comparing flex/grip with a revolver vs. a real leaf pack that gives equivalent suspension travel. Nobody in their right mind would try to compare travel you get with a regular shackle vs. a revolver... Duh, of course the revolver has more travel...that's sort of their purpose in life, isn't it?

What has to be compared in order to see the difference in ACTUAL traction, is:

1) A rig with regular leaf packs and revolver shackles.

2) A rig with different leaf pack and standard shackles.

And the available travel from #1 and #2 have to be equivalent.

Maybe you can't see what I'm talking about, but so far, there hasn't been any "testing" comparing my recommendation for a real leaf pack instead of revolvers. We (myself included) took the eye off the ball, so to speak, and got hung up with friction coefficients. My bad. But the fact remains, the "test" wasn't testing my argument in the first place.

Thanks for talking about it....at least SOME people are mature about it.



......But, yes it did..as the leaves were the same, the tires were the same, the ground was the same...the ONLY variable was the shackles.

I have stated repeatedly, that if you are doing a flexy pack, there's no point in revolvers - as the articulation should be there in spades that way too...

The revolvers niche is where you need a stiffer pack for load handling, etc..but want the travel...or don't want too much lift, just articulation, etc.

YOU have stated repeatedly that the drooped tire would SLIP as SOON AS THE REVOLVER OPENED...as, you stated that ONCE OPENED, there would be no down force on the tire.

The ENTIRE PREMISE of your argument was that the tire would slip WHEN the Revolver opened...it didn't...

....and it didn't half way down, or 3/4 of the way down...it did it when it ran out of droop...EXACTLY as I claimed it would.



So - with the Revolver being the only variable...and it acting as I said it would, and NOT acting as YOU said it would....I think its conclusive that you were wrong about how it would work.

I even told you WHY you were wrong...point by point.

Then, SHOWED you a demonstration..illustrating the point, using your OWN example.

So, all things being equal...the Revolver is not a wasted mod...it works.
______________________________________________________________

Is it a panacea, and with it bullets bounce off, and I no longer need lockers armor or lower T-case gears, and Tree Huggers burn Spires of Spotted Owls in reverence to it?

No...of course not, and the burnt feathers smell badly as well.



Its merely another kind of shackle...one that allows more droop than a regular shackle...and, the droop lets the tire push the truck, as the tire remains on the ground.

Will a flexier pack do that too? - Sure...and if I could get one flexy enough, yet stiff enough, I'd sure consider it too.

That's it.

________________________________________________________

Ding Dong - The Myth is Dead!

BECAUSE IT WAS ON PAVEMENT!!!

That is the reason friction coeff. got introduced into the arguement in the first place...

I don't care if a revolver can keep grip on an RTI ramp (or ramp) on solid pavement... That proves the first part of my arguement that the ONLY thing they're good for is for show...

Show me a video of a revolver on DIRT or ROCK that actually allows for slippage easily, and if THAT video proves me wrong, then so be it. As of right now, all the "video evidence" shows is revolvers will give you a higher RTI score verses a regular shackle, which is EXACTLY what I've already conceded... The video says absolutely nothing (much like an RTI ramp score) of how it will perform offroad.

Yes. It works rather well on asphalt. With that logic, I should run high performance street tires, so I can get better traction on pavement, too... Maybe get some spiffy spinna's (though I don't know how that'll help me).

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the video doesn't "prove" what you're saying it "proves" (over and over and over and...). There's a lot of things that allow traction on pavement that don't do a darn thing offroad. The benefits on one surface do not necessarily translate to another surface.

this is going along the same lines as a politics thread almost. Where are shraham and nymadman when you need them?

Holy crap.

I can't believe you have the patience to deal with this crap!

Way to keep your head and common sense, FWIW...

...

Ty:

You are 100% right about the Johnny joints. They do help alleviate the problem I mentioned.

As far as my links go, they are far from the best information I have read, but I am not aware of better info posted on the web. They certainly are better than this beholdtherage.com crap, though......

Porsche has stated all of the reasons why revolvers don't really work. They give more flex, but do not give useful flex offroad. Hardcore rigs don't run them for a reason. They are "redneck bling" at best. I don't need to convince you or TJ of the facts. They are almost self-evident. I am only still replying in the event that some newbie is naive enough to be fooled by TJ's usual bologna.

Thanks for being consistantly useless Jeff.

Look, address the info, drop the useless parroting.

Porsche was proven wrong on each point, because he (AND YOU) KEEP forgetting about opposite side stuffage leverage, and ALL the other factors that made the tire droop, and grip...

Unless you have something new...stop pretending you're trying to be useful and protecting newbies...you are doing them a Dis-Service, not a service, when you perpetrate myths.

Your pattern of sources: You pretend some random guy is somehow an authority, and pretend a journalist or an actual REVIEW is BS, etc...



Its a myth...you quote other people who believed it, and ignore the people WHO HAVE IT.



Go work out the physics - to show me why my bumble bee can't fly, and get back to me when you figure out it CAN fly.

Dunno if either has ever posted outside the Clubhouse

Jeff, your face reminds me of redneck bling. Seriously though, I have been trying to keep an open mind on both arguements. But you know what, I'm already running them and only time will tell if they roll me or F'up my spring hangers. As for traction, I guess I won't know since I am running alcan spring packs and a detroit in the rear. Even if it doesn't add traction, it is keeping me stable and they were the only alternative at the moment to match the flex up front.

You are too funny.

Your 100 pages of bullcrap hasn't proven a thing. The physics are simple and if you are having trouble understanding them, I would recommend going back to high school and taking a course in it.

Everything I have posted has been true. As far as I can tell, porsche has tried to post sensible information as well. He has addressed all of the reasons why revolvers help on the RTI ramp, but don't help off-road. He has explained how they can cause the shock to unload, resulting in a rollover or body damage. It should be obvious to everybody why revolvers can ruin the stock spring hangers and why they are more prone to failure than traditional shackles.

You have replied to these sensibilities with illogical conclusions, propaganda and insults. You have written pages of garbage instead of taking one good, hard look at the physical realities of the revolver shackle mechanism. I sincerely believe that you think you have somehow proven something, but the simple truth is that you can't even understand why you are incorrect.

Porsche and I have both conceded that the revolvers will give more flex and a tiny bit of additional grip. We just believe that the cons outweigh the pros on this one. What's not sensible about that?

At the time I researched revolvers, I asked around. The following businesses recommended against them:

Predator 4x4
Armorology
Tanner 4x4
4wheelparts

Why is it that these guys recommended that I not spend the money? Because they all wheel and have seen mishaps as a result of the revolvers.

You are not addressing the facts, merely restating that you restated them, blah blah blah.

The physics are on my side...

The very fact that you guys went from ZERO TRACTION, based upon YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE PHYSICS...to conceeding "A tiny bit" of extra traction...

...MEANS that you didn't understand the physics.

So - yes, its high school physics, you you have misapplied it, and come to the wrong conclusion.

The bee flies...you admit it, but now say it only flies a "tiny bit".

Well, that's SOME progress.

TJ:

I have not conceded anything. They do not increase traction any whatsoever. They do not cause traction loss as quickly on asphalt as they will on dirt. There's a lot of things out there that will accomplish that feat, including wider tires, different tread pattern, the fact it's fucking asphalt and not dirt, etc...

Showing revolvers working well on an RTI ramp is not proving they work offroad... Again, there are lots of things that work freaking awesome on an RTI ramp (think half-elliptical springs), but are absolutely worthless when offroading.

The physics, as you so politely mention, are not on your side. Flip back a few pages and re-read when I explained the physics to you. You didn't get it then, and you still don't get it now. I'm not a physics teacher, and I don't have the time nor the patience to teach you dynamics. I laid it out as simply as I could; that's as good a description as I can give 'ya.

Sorry if it's not good enough for you to understand. However, my limited abilities in explaining things I know do not make them wrong; just means I can't explain it worth crap.

You made it VERY clear that they would lose traction the second they started to unfold...

..as your premise was that they would be "unweighted" at that moment...

...as you assumed that the only forces pushing the drooped tire down could be the leaf spring...and if that was not pushing on it any more...there would be ZERO downforce.

That was your premise.

You THEN said PROOF would be a video of the tire slipping the instant the shackle unfolded...as you postulated that from there down, there'd be no weight on it.

So - We actually SHOT a video of the shackle unfolding...and the tire DID NOT slip.

So - You said it would slip...it didn't.

It provided traction LONGER than the regular lift shackle did....

So the USEFUL DROOP was better than it was with a conventional shackle.

OK - It was better...not ZERO.

It would not matter if it was on dirt, or concrete...as it was the SAME FOR BOTH SHACKLES.

At what point will this all make sense to you?



I swear I know you are a bright guy....but, this is YOUR plane on the tread mill.



PS - You have to fully understand something to be able to explain it in your own words.

____________________________________________________________

One more time - ALL the physics are needed to understand this...NOT just the one's you're using.

Its a live axle....when one side is stuffed, it applies leverage to the other side...

If I pick up one side of a see saw...the other side is pushed down by the same force, etc.

Trust me...its true.

_______________________________________________________

No shit sherlock... This is true in a regular shackle.

Which part of DIRT verses ASPHALT are you not getting, exactly? Yes, the surface DOES matter. Proof of that? Drive 50 mph on asphalt. Then drive 50 mph on snow. Which one has better traction?

Actually, don't (go 50)....

Revolvers have been known to cause rollovers on asphalt as well!

Well, instead of physics, which wasn't working out for you...you NOW say that the revolver ONLY has traction on pavement.

Does that mean that on DIRT, you think the REVOLVER would slip first?



You ADMIT that the leverage PUSHING DOWN THE DROOPED SIDE, when the opposite side is STUFFED...is the SAME for ANY live axle with ANY SHACKLE.



So why would a revolver shackle change that?



Its NOT that pavement doesn't give better traction than ice...its just that the principle is that same...its just a question of degree for the test...when, not if, it would slip...I'm sure BOTH would slip sooner on ice...BUT -

Look - THE PAVEMENT WAS THE SAME TRACTION COEFFICIENT FOR BOTH SHACKLES....and the order of slippage was Regular shackle slipped first...THEN the Revolver.



If it was "the pavement"...WHY did the regular lift shackle slip FIRST?

The thread lives, so that the Evil Myth can die...

OR

So Xtrail, wuddya think?

B. .... You beat me to it.... I was going to post this once we reached page 8 of the same thing over and over and over..........

I dunno they seem to work pretty well in the dirt and rock from what I've seen.

Tell you what come out and try the lines marty takes on the rubicon and see how your rear suspension compares

the only way to get the full advantage of revolvers is if you run a brushguard, euro tailights, and lowering springs

TJ, for the love of all that is good and holy...

A revolver acts JUST LIKE a regular shackle when it's folded up.

As soon as it starts opening up, there's more physics involved than just the lever action that WE BOTH AGREE EXISTS IN REGULAR SETUP...

I've ALREADY detailed, in depth, what happens when a revolver opens up, and what forces are acting. You're just being stubborn at this point to differentiate it... A part of me wants to think you already wised up, but are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

One more time... Yes, the video was a very good proof of absolutely nothing I was talking about.

A revolver LOSES traction as it opens up FASTER than a real leaf pack that flexes. I detailed the physics for you over a week ago.

And since it LOSES traction as it opens up, the AMOUNT it will lose will vary depending on the surface. On ASPHALT, the shackle STILL loses traction, it's just that there's more available to LOSE before it a tire can slip when compared to dirt. THIS is why the surface material is important.

How much PERCENTAGE of LOSS is not a variable. That will remain the same. However, the OVERALL amount of traction available will depend on the surface.

Let's look at numbers... Asphalt has a coefficient of friction of 0.8. Dirt has roughly 0.3.

So let's say, arbitraily the tire starts out with traction (friction) equal to 100 lbs weight x the coefficient of friction. And let's say the revolver loses traction linearly through 5" of opening, so 20% loss per inch of opening.

So on asphalt, the traction looks like this:

100 * 0.8 = 80 lbs

START: 80 lbs Total loss: 80 lbs. 20% of 80 lbs = 16 lbs per inch.

1" open: 64 lbs (20% less than 80 lbs)
2" open: 48 lbs
3" open: 32 lbs
4" open: 16 lbs
5" open: 0 lbs

And on dirt, the traction looks like this:

100 * 0.3 = 30 lbs

START: 30 lbs Total loss: 30 lbs. 20% of 30 lbs is 6 lbs per inch.

1" open: 24 lbs (20% less than 30 lbs)
2" open: 18 lbs
3" open: 12 lbs
4" open: 6 lbs
5" open: 0 lbs

So as long as 6 lbs of friction (traction) is enough to keep you moving, then it's all good even at full open on dirt. But if it's, say, 16 lbs, then on pavement at 4" opening, you keep moving. But on dirt, your wheel started spinning somewhere between 2" and 3" opening. And the higher amount needed, the sooner you slip on dirt. That's the nature of the surface, and THAT'S why the surface is important in consderations.

So you're going to argue that it won't matter when you compare a revolver to a regular shackle, 'cause the regular won't travel as far... That's great. THAT WAS NOT AND IS NOT MY ARGUEMENT, SO QUIT GOING BACK TO IT AS IF YOU'RE COUNTERING MY CLAIM....

Here is my arguement against Revolvers, as simply as I can put it:

We KNOW the revolver has to be losing traction faster than a spring pack with equivalent droop limits, because the cantilever force is NO LONGER ACTING if the revolver can actually open up. It CAN'T be acting on the shackle, elsewise it would PUSH the revolver CLOSED!!! But the canteliver force IS ACTING on a full spring pack through that flexing range, because it is STILL PUSHING that side of the axle down!!!

So as soon as a revolver starts opening up, it's past it's peak traction because it's no longer being pushed down. And it's going to lose traction very, very quickly the more it opens up, as the math above shows. And not only that, the effect of that loss will show up SOONER on dirt than it will on pavement, because the available friction is MUCH less.

And at this point, I'm done with this thread. TJ, I'll see you in couple months on the next one of these damn things.

Not to get too far into a pissing match or anything, but my stock suspension (spring over) on the Frontier used to flex almost as much as what your photos are showing... And at this point, if those photos are truly it, you really, really don't want me coming out to MOAB. I'd be too tempted to use your Xterra as an RTI ramp for the Fronty...

Not that that I can really claim anymore than a morbid curiosity about what's still being said here. After 4 pages, the point was made. I'll go back to the pimped out green X.
I am genuinely curious though as to where you come up with this:

What exactly do you do in your spare time ? And the comment about useing the X AS an RTI ramp at MOAB is just GAY and childish

Porsche -

What are you NOW saying discusses GRADUAL loss in weighting as the Revolver unfolds...

When you explained the physics the FIRST TIME, you said the SECOND IT STARTED TO UNFOLD IT WAS UNWEIGHTED.

NOW you say its losing weight as it goes down, NOT that its unweighted as soon as it unfolds.

You have NOT addressed the fact that the leaf spring is pulling the axle UP at the end of its droop travel..NOT pushing it down..the droop is FIGHTING the leaf at the end...meaning LESS weight on the tire at the end of droop, NOT MORE.

You are also ignoring that the Leaves' DOWN FORCE ITSELF is dropping, afterall...the leaf can support the full weight of the truck ONLY at ride height, and Less and Less as the tire drops....so the leaf is providing less and less down force...and, frankly...as soon as it hits the neutral point (regular shackle rattle...)...it is SUBTRACTING downforce, NOT adding it.

IE: You still think the leaf is the only traction weight.



You ALSO have NOT explained WHY THE REGULAR LIFT SHACKLE SLIPPED FIRST.

I understand the frictional proportions you listed, and understand the thoretical nature of the discussion....

....but you still have not accounted for all that's going on...and that's why you don't get it yet....and why you don't have a good explaination for why the Revolver did not slip when you said it would, and why the regular shackle DID slip BEFORE the Revolver did.

I know you can't see this yet...and that you even think its me who can't see your point...but I see your point...and raise THIS ONE:

AGAIN - the actual coefficient was the SAME, the only variable was the shackle....so - You say its because the weight required to keep from slipping on a lower coefficient of friction surface would be greater, which is true, but, its still proportional...

....and - As you claim the revolver unfolds and loses tire weighting...you never explained how you went from zero as soon as its unfolded, to the DEGREE of unfolding changing the tire weighting...yet...the "Physics" you were quoting claimed that the second it unfolded, there was no weight....

....and that there was only weight when the shackle was folded...

Two excercises to illustrate - Trying to solve these may bring it to light:

...How would a 1/4 unfolded shackle support more weight than a 3/4 unfolded shackle, etc? (This is the part where you think the bee can't fly.)

....and explain:

"Why the shackle with the best traction would slip FIRST" - as this is your NEW PREMISE.



PS - and why do the people who HAVE revolvers NOT have the trouble your Myth would indicate?

I didn't explain it, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT MY COMPARISON... Damn you're thick... Keep an eye on the ball, not the clown bouncing it, and you'll do much better in this discussion...

Porsche -

You state that the revolvers provide droop, but that the drooped tire has no traction compared to a regular lift shackle.

OK - that's the ball...the traction.

The ENTIRE ball was that point.

The ENTIRE thrust of my discussion was to refute that Myth.

If you mean the only thing you NOW stand by as a fact, is that dirt gives worse traction than pavement...we are in 100% agreement.



If you want to keep insisting that the revolver gives droop that doesn't give any traction...despite overwhelming evidence, including a video...

...and despite evidence that the leaves do not add as significant a down force as the droop drops the tire from ride height...

...and despite the people who HAVE revolvers saying the Myth isn't true, they don't have the theorized problems (Their bees can fly...your calculations are wrong...)...

...then, you can keep your face paint on.



PS - this is not personal - I like you, its just you are the only one left attempting to support the Myth....which we're trying to bust.

I am sitting here thinking.

With a standard shackle, if I put a jack on the frame close to the left rear wheel and start jacking. The Xterra will lift and the tire will stay on the ground up to the point where the spring has reached maximum droop or the end of the shock is reached (which ever comes first).

If the leaf spring was off the vehicle and you look at the arch, that is the position of the spring with no force on it. So when I started to jack up the vehicle, up to the point where the spring gets to the same arch as with no load, it is providing down force on the tire. Once it's passed that point, the axle and tire are pulling down on the spring until it can no longer flex and the tire will lift off the ground.

In my mind, as long as the tire touches the ground, the tire still has "some" traction due to the weight of the axle and tire.

Now, if you add a revolver to that and repeat. When you start jacking on the frame, the vehicle will go up and the spring will still apply down force until the spring reaches the same arch as with no load. At that point, the revolver will start to unfold and the tire is pulling the shackle open rather and the springs no longer apply down force, up to the point where the shackle is completely unfolded. At that point, the tire keeps pulling down on the springs until they reached their maximum flex at which point the tire will lift off the ground.

As with a standard shackle, in my opinion, as long as the tire touches the ground, it provides "some" traction from the weight of the tire and axle.

I think everybody agrees that a tire that touches the ground must have somewhat better traction than a tire in the air.

My post will never settle your disagreement and also note that I don't have any experience with the revolver nor do I have hard core off road experience. In fact, I still have my rear sway bar connected, so if I wanted better articulation, I'd start with that.

This was just how in my mind the suspension works with and without a revolver.

Dude, you're arguing a revolver vs. reg. shackle. I'm arguing revolver vs. flexy leaf pack...

Don't believe that's my arguement? Let me cut/paste a few of my posts so far:

Page 1:

Page 2:

Page 3:

Page 6:

And just in case... I'll add some more...

TJ: we aren't comparing a revolver shackle to a stock suspension setup. At least, I'm not. You seem to be. I don't know why. What we are comparing is 2 different ways of adding travel to the suspension, revolvers, or a new flexy leaf pack. Of the two ways to get more travel, 1 way (revolvers) results in significantly less traction than the other. Period.

To answer 56kz2slow, yes, as long as a tire is on the ground, it gets "some" traction. However, as I stated from the very beginning, as soon as the revolver opens up, it is not enough traction to still move the rig. 56k, you've got the idea of how a revolver works. What I thought TJ and I were arguing at the beginning was how much traction is enough to make the truck move.

I didn't realize until a few pages ago that he was comparing revolvers to regular shackles, without changing the leaf pack... He missed my point from the very start of the thread.

I also didn't realize at the start I needed to qualify that statement, and say we were talking about OFFROAD, aka, dirt... I assumed that was a given, but I guess that was too much to assume...

Bring it and all the $ you have to any Xterra event and we will have a little contest

Funny thing is I've seen a lot of talk but very little or not action pictures of your truck ever so put up or shut up. Lets see some thing from moab or any thing from you but a bunch of chat

So - You agree that a revolver shackle gives useful traction when drooped, and it is not leaving the drooped tire unweighted.

I wish you'd made that clear...all those physics references claiming the tire had ZERO traction made me think that was your point, and, as THAT was the MYTH...

...That's what I was addressing.

OK, you can wipe off the face paint.

As I stated as well...there's no point in a Revolver shackle if you have a flexy leaf pack, its overkill...

As I stated...the perfect function for the revolver is when you need a STIFFER leaf pack to handle heavy loads...but want the DROOP of the flexy pack for articulation.

The Myth was that this droop did not provide traction......

Now that we all agree that the Revolver's Droop provides traction as good as, or better than a regular shackle's traction...

The Myth is FINALLY Busted.

Sorry for the earlier confusion.

Yep. I'm all talk.... I'm just a web wheeler.

Hey -

We settled this...lets not add personal attacks here.

Porsche is my Bud.......so lets not get into a "I wheel more than you" type of pissing match.

Lets face it...I wheel about every day...but I don't base what I know on how many times I wheeled, just on what I learned from it all.

Theoretically, if someone were a very fast learner...they could wheel once, and know everything.

So is this going to escalate as the years go on!?!

Don't confuse a feud with a technical discussion.

TJ, hasn't your truck been down since October?