I was moving stuff out back to see how much room I had to stuff an Air Tank under where the spare used to go...so I was flexing the diff/frame up/down to check clearances....

(I have the Calmini AAL/Shackle lift in back, and the ride height/level ground, wheel arch to center of hub distance was 24.5", with a 3" SL/2" BL)

I noticed some interesting things out back...

1. The limit to my droop is my rear spring pack, not my shocks....

2. With the sway bar on, the sway link hits the shock on droop...(Pass side)....stopping down travel at 28" from wheel arch to center of hub.





3. Disco'd, the wheel can drop another 1.5" of droop, before the springs stop it.

4. From wheel arch to center of hub, I got 29.5" max droop (Disco'd) unless I push down on the tire, stretching the spring a bit more...I didn't hit the end of shock travel.

5. At full droop, I had ~ 8" axle to bump stop clearance.

6. Picking up the opp corner to compress the rear, I got to 20.5" arch top to hub center, and about 4" bump stop clearance. (NOT full compression, just a load from opp jacking)



7. At the above compression, the spring pack was not completely flat, but almost...with ~ 4" Bstop travel left.



I am curious if anyone has measured their wheel travel limits?

I am specifically interested in how a AC or SLR AAL or new packed 3" lift would compare.

I used the hub center to top of arch measurement because it eliminates the tire size issue in comparisons....I have 33x12.5's on there for example.

Anyone else measure?

If I can get around to it this week, I'll see what I've got for you. I know my droop is a bit more with the Deaver springs. Not sure how much though.

Sounds dangerously like a plan!



I figure we have Deavers, SLR's 10 Pack & AAL versions, AOR/Orbit Eyes, Alcan, etc...

So there should be some variation...plus, there may be some people with Calmini lifts who have different results, etc.

Should be interesting to see what works.

Hey TJ after al of your advise I decided to keep the SLR AAL pack and order the 1" shackles to complement them, as soon as I get them on I'll take measurements, and take some more after I break things in a bit (and hopefully not just break things!)

I have the same problem, and it doesn't take much droop to bang the shock. I do have extended length Bils and I think they are a bit bigger around than stock, but even the stocker on that side had some dents in it where it banged into the swaybar. I do have Calmini shackles.

The thing that sucks is that I don't want to damage my shock (it is already missing a bit of paint) so I basically don't use the rear swaybar anymore - but that makes for some quite a bit more understeer than stock while cornering, which really sucks.

I need the swaybar on there...I drive on highways too much.

I'm looking to adjust the clearance a bit to make some room, and I'm looking to install a QD that will be easy enough to take off that I'll actually do it when off road.



I had a set of JKS Quicker Disco's on my last Jeep, and they never rattled, and were a breeze to get on/off, even on uneven ground.

They are also adjustable for length (~8-11.6" or so...) so I should be able to fab something that reaches the 9.5" or so the X needs from it.

If it works, I'll let everyone know...the other QD's for the X are rattle traps.

Speaking of Calmini Shackles...I wonder what the droop would be with the shackles, but no AAL?

Just curious... There doesn't seem to be much curve in your spring pack??? Is that because of your shackles?

(Sorry, I wasn't paying attention, I'll shut up)

Well in that last pic he has his wheel stuffed.

Tom

Tom's right, as captioned, the spring is on the compressed side, and as noted, is almost flat in that position...with about 4" of bumpstop clearance remaining...and about 4" of possible travel of the tire upwards based upon a diameter of 33", and a radius of 16.5"...and 4" of (hub center to arch) travel potentially available.

IE: The tire could theoretically go up another 4" into the well, raising the rear of the spring another 2", at which point, it would be totallly flat....and on the stop.

You won't get any more travel w/ an AAL, no matter who's AAL setup it is. You're limited in your travel by the stock springs, regardless. There are only 2 ways to increase it; buy a longer shackle (which you've already done), and buy a complete leafpack replacement.

Porche - My assumption was that you are right...and that the only improvement was shackle based on an AAL/Shackle lift..but some AAL/Shackle lifts use 1", 1.5", and 2" lift versions...

I was also wondering if a worn out spring pack that is sagging can droop further than a newer, stiffer one, or if the de-arching is unidirectional as far as metal fatigue, etc.

It will be interesting if we can establish some baseline emperical data.

Nope. Because the leaf spring is fixed at one point, and hinged at the other, your down-travel is limited by those two factors, and the overall length of the main leaf. Unless that steel stretches, then that's your absolute, limiting factor... And if it's stretching, well... You've got bigger problems to deal with!!

So, you can only get more travel by installing a longer main leaf, or installing a longer rear shackle, to make the hinge lever longer. Anything else will just help you get the most out of what's available (longer shocks, remove sway bar, etc.).

An AAL can't increase travel, because the main leaf is still connected at both ends. It's still going to be your absolute, limiting factor.

Absolutely.



I'm thinking that a longer spring would require a shorter shackle to maintain the same height, unless the hangers are further apart, etc.

I think a shackle will give more travel than a leaf pack, inch of lift for inch of lift.

A softer spring rate, such that the weight of the axle might pull the tire down further than a stiffer rated spring would allow, might improve droop.

Somewhere out there is the best compromise. (Yeah, we all do coil conversions)

That's next year.

Yesterday when I was having my bumper built (pics forthcoming) we were looking at different ways to get more droop out of the rear.

While we've spent a bit of time (and $$) recently playiing with the rear and esthetics along with the new spring pack, completing the rear end should mark the end of this faze of mods tot he X.

I wish to not go too crazy (too late ) but there are a variety of options.

The only real way for me now to measure full travel cycled would be to seperate the leaf pack and cycle the pack one leaf at a time and do it right. My perfect universe will add more time to my day .

In a perfect universe in which I also have a money tree and an extra vehicle to drive while my truck is being worked on we would get a longer leaf pack ( we are still longer than a Jeepspeed's 54" race pack though. Damn those things are short) and relocate the front perches foreward and then put in reversed extended shackles.

The limiting factor with mine and Ed's springs is the shocks. Looking up underneath, we have about 3-4 inches up under the body to work with. My goal (pre cage) is to still have the truck as functional and family friendly as it was when it was new. So staying under the bed is key.

A "cage" of gusseted tubes seems really feasable. There's plenty of room to stay under the "bed." All we have to do is relocated the lines that run on the pass side that go to somesortofemissions/fuellcanfilterlookingthingy? that is tucked up in there.

We'll measure up and fined a 7100 or so that should work and we're going to get fabbed a reverse lower driver's side shock mount so that both shocks are on the same plane.

Hmmm.

SAS, Coil Overs all around, as long as I never eat or buy anything for a couple of years....

It COULD happen.

The only way to get CO's in the rear is to link it. I've seen a few Explorers that have been linked but it is a massive ammount of work to get it done back there as opposed to doing a well thought out leaf set up.

Just buy Revolvers and be done with it. Your shocks will then be the limiting factor (unless you put in limiting straps).

I am running custom Alcans, Revolvers, and RS5112 rear shocks. The shocks limit the travel. I have been planning on increasing the size of my bumpstops so I can run a longer shock without bottoming out, just have not gotten there yet. Right now with this combo I have to run a 3/4" spacer under my bumpstop to keep from bottoming the Ranchos.

Did the revolvers bolt right in, or was there fab work involved?

They had a X specific application at one point, but they don't now...is there an off the shelf version that fits?

Awe, crap. Just realized the X and the Frontier are different; nevermind...

If you were SOA, like the 4x4 Frontier, then you could use revolvers from a Cherokee; same spring width and hanger bracket width. But since your not, that won't work.

AC used to carry the revolvers for the X and Frontier. Do they not anymore? They're still posted on their website, anyways.

I was working on the X this weekend and remembered this thread so I took some measurements for you TJ. Of course I goobered the whole thing and measure differently than you did so it's a moot point. I'll crank it back up tonight and see what I can get for you.

Goobers, raisinettes, its all good.

EditorX - So - What's the story?

Quick math job on this one. I took my last totals that were from the top of the tire to wheel arch and then added the difference to get the total from arch to the center of the hub. Anyway, full droop by oposite jacking gives me 30 inches of droop center to arch. I will have to measure forced articulation next time I am out. I had a good one today but didn't have a tape handy.

Edited for beer induced typo. BTW TJ...I am running 33's like you, but without the BL. I just have the Deaver spring pack and 6 inch shackles.

OK - Emperical data!



If I have 29.5" of droop from the well arch to hub center...and you have 30" for the same measurement...and My 2" BL makes my well arch 2" taller w/o added travel...you gained about 2.5" of droop up and above the AAL/shackle set up.

Now...to add a new variable...I have a set of revolvers I'm looking to pop on....collapsed they're about 1/2" less than the 3" lift shackle on there now...but open, they should get quite a bit longer.



In a few weeks...I should have some new measurements.


Collapsed shackle length's about the same as the 3" lift shackle eye to eye.


I still need to measure the extended eye to eye distance...the extra droop would be about half that distance.





Extended Measurement.

Just read this (wow returning to the party kind of a year late).

John, XJ shackles absolutely will not fit a 4wd Frontier. XJs have an "inverse" shackle hanger, meaning that the tube portion is on the shackle, not the hanger. It is a silly design, yes, but fact nonetheless.

Let me show you some pictures...

XJ Revolver:



"Normal" style Revolver for most everything else:



From checking listings it seems that AC has the only remaining stock on Xterra Revolvers. I noticed from the pictures in this thread that the shackle had actually evolved somewhat. EditorX's revolvers look somewhat different than mine to (his have offset bends, mine have straight uppers with a wider bar inbetween.

AC's Articulator Suspension uses the remaining Revolver Shackles.

I'm actually not running with revolvers. I get all the flex and droop that I need with the Deaver springs and a 6 inch shackle.

So in my post in Manuf row, I've explained how the SAS springpacks have pushed the OE shackles backwards (to the rear of the truck). You're saying that the CALMINI shackles (longer than OE) will be the ticket to keeping them from flipping backwards?

Wouldn't the centering of the axle on the pack have more to do with the shackle swing than the length of the shackle itself?

The truck doesn't know what the shackle is attached to, the leaves don't know what the shackle hanger is attached to...etc...it should be just the geometry of it.

IE: when I went from the 3" OE to the 6" calmini shackle...it JUST picked the truck up the 1.5" difference in lift, and the attitude of the shackle remained the same, it was just longer.

I think that if you did the same thing, you would get the same result.

Its more likley that the axle is in a slightly new position relative to front/rear attachment points as a result of the leaf lift changes...and that THAT is what's changed the geometry of your shackle hang.

Can you check that out before swapping shackles?

I think you are talking to me.. NOPE, I'm already done and the shackles are staying put.. Meaning, they're not falling backwards.

Misquote, I ready your response and it flowed out my fingertips onto the keyboard. They were TJ's Revolvers...

Yeah - I was saying that I don't think longer shackles would change the direction the shackles laid at, as the 6" shackles hung the same as the 3" shackles on mine, and the others I've seen.

TJ, for whatever reason, (well, it's physics really :rolleyes: ) the longer shackles although lifting the rear perhaps higher than I'dve prefered, have held and are doing their job . SO, anyone interested in using the SAS springpacks will have to use the Calmini Shackles (or longer), the OE are too short.

I read throught the pages on this and notice no one pointed this out -

#2 - this has been known and talked about since before I even got on this board. I'm not sure what brand of shock you are running (what are they anways?), but driving a 2001 X without the rear swayabr on even at Highway speeds is fine. Lots of us have been doing it for years without a problem.

when it comes to #1, I have to ask this because #3 comes later - but did you come to the conclusion that your springs limit your droop with the rear swaybar on?
If you are running the rear swaybar connected, that limits your droop as point number three clearly shows.

That's the way I'm reading the sequence of events here - since you mention removing the swaybar after mentioning what limits you rear droop.

I'm guessing you came to conclusion #1 after disconnecting your swaybaar, but I jst want to be sure.

I also have to ask these questions, of which I have no idea- Have you disconnected your Shocks and measured the amount of flex your rear suspension gets with them unattached?
I ask, because with my Load Leaf AAL and Shackles, I get a lot more flex in the rear if I take off my shocks. I haven't measured it, but I know because if I lift X up from the slider in front of the rear tire, I can get the rear tire off the ground before my floor jack tops out with the shocks attached, but can not do it with the shocks unattached.

In addition, I don't have a 2" BL on my truck...if I'm not mistaken the Upper shock mounts are attached to the body, meaning you have a 2" farther gap between the lower and upper shock mounts than I do. Now, I could be wrong about that, I haven't been under there in a while (with all this snow and ice and cols up here - and no garage :brrrr:)

The only thing I can think of is that you have longer shocks than I do (Bilstein 5100's for the 3" suspesnion lift), but since I don't know what kind of shock you are running (or how far they will extend) I don't know that for sure.

But if that is true, it means (with the same length shok before and after a BL) that you lose 2" of droop because your shock tops out sooner due to the increased distance between the top and bottom shock mounts.

Finally, you measured the height between the hub and wheel well arch, and compared it to editor X's - but how do the length of your shocks compare? Afterall, if I put stock shocks on my Lifted X, I lose droop because the stock shocks aren't as long.

Just curious about those last things (after the swaybar), since no one else asked...

I installed my Revolver shackles yesterday and took some measurements for comparison. I have no body lift, 12" travel Bilstiens, swaybar removed, stock rear leaf pack, and the Revolver shackles. Lifted one front tire with a forklift to articulate the rear and from top of the arch to the center of the rear wheel measures 32.25". The shocks have 2" of travel left. All the exsisting brake lines breather tubes etc are long enough for now, but will need to be modified if/when I get a SL.

Rock - too long a question, head exploding...

I'm not sure about what you mean by some of the questions...

I'll try a summary, see if it helps..

(Applies to my X)

The shocks length are not the limiting factor...

that's with the sway off...the droop is limited by the springs running out of flex, not the shocks

with the sway on, the sway link hits the p side shock, preventing further droop...but having no effect upon hwy driving/non-drooped action

Disco-ing the shock did not improve droop, the spring was the limiting factor...I could get the disco'd shock to extend past the attachement points by quite a bit

If I add the revolvers, I should be able to add about 2" more droop than I have now...as they are about 4" longer than the 6" long lift shackles I now have on there.

Just taking off the sway bar allowed significantly more droop...initially by not hitting the sway link on the p side shock, but also by not resisting the droop of the axle...but, disco-ing the sway bar did not allow me to fully extend my shocks, which were longer than needed for full droop, as that was ultimately limited by the spring flex.

I have 11" travel Bils...with the revolvers on, eventually, they should be either fully extended at full droop, or have almost no slack left, or be limiting (doh)...

So - I got some Darlington UBSkiderz, which protect the leaf pack/u-bolt areas, as well as the shock bottom mounts, and raise the shock's bottom mount point, allowing the same travel shock to droop further.

And that should allow my revolvers to fully droop my suspension, w/o the shocks being a limiting factor.



I think the rear OEM shocks have about 9" of travel...due to the positioning and angles involved, an inch of shock travel gives a lot more than an inch of wheel travel ...the fronts have an even more dramatic ratio of shock travel to wheel travel.

IE: A small increase in shock travel gives a proportionally large increase in wheel travel.

Methods -

I jumped up and down on the drooped tire to see if it could droop more after taking off the sways and shocks...nope, it's not budging...flex limited droop revealed.

I took off the bottom shock eye from its mount, and let it extend further, after bouncing said tire...and it slid out longer than it had been, but the tire would not go any lower. ....flex limited droop revealed, shock reserve droop travel revealed.

Sways on...drooped until limited by sway link hitting shock....that link loosened, droop continued, other link loosened, droop continued to full...sway limited droop revealed.

I hope some of this helps.