Since I thought that calmini would have been producing thier front winch bumper for the 05 X by now, and Jim at Shrockworks seems to have one coming down the pipeline very quickly my question for the 05X's is "Who will have one for
sale first?"

My cold beer goes to Jim @ Shrockworks since he seems to be on track alot faster than Calmini.

There is no Flaming for either manufacturer just want to see what everyone else's thoughts are that own an 05X and want a front winch bumper...

There are always going to be 2 sides to this type of "WAR." I hope that either manufacturer will produce a quality bumper that is safe and functional to the vehicle/driver/passenger.

The issues behind Calmini are more than skin deep. I have been on the phone with Steve several times and he has explained why the delay. Things should kick up for them in the next 4 weeks. My order remains with them on the rear bumper (and sliders... and lift). Perhaps he is intentionally waiting for Jim to produce the first bumper??? I don't know.

Patience... want to go play in the rocks but don't have the protection needed.

I would like to hear Steve have an opportunity to update us on where they are at before letting your post dictate their reputation.

If had to do it again I would go with the Shrock bumper and not my ARB. THe approach angle is better and it has true recovery points on it. This is just what I have read and seen on pictures. As far as looks go I like the Calmini. Function before looks.

As far as waiting, thats just part of the game, your talking "small" business trying to accomidate thousands of Xterra and Fronty owners.

Calmini has been talking front bumper orders for a long time. I don't know if any finished bumpers have been delivered to their owners, but Calmini is definitely ahead of Shrockworks on this one.

However, I'm still gonna wait for more details on the Shrockworks bumber before I decide witch one to get. I am hoping they will have a cutout for the factory fogs because I don't want to loose mine.

is there any hard date on either one of those bumpers?

I still think that Calmini will ultimately be the way to go. Their bumpers are designed to accommodate integrated-solenoid winches, which is where winch technology is headed.

The Shrock takes winches with both integrated AND non-integrated solinoids, no problem. Don't know where the confusion came from.



I also think that its a better bumper, with thicker steel, better powder coat, and a more functional design.

I like the look better as well, but thats just form...and I'm more of a function guy anyway.

The Shrocks just work better, and, I'd wait for it even if it took longer than the calmini.

That said, not every one cares about approach angles, impact resistance, tire clearance, powder coat quality, shackle mounts, fog cut-outs, thicker metal DOM tubing, etc...most just get what they think looks cool, and...most people seem to like whatever it is they chose...because they choose the one that meets their needs/wants...so, there's really no wrong answer for each person when they make an informed choice.

Bumper wars huh? Well, nothing wrong with a little friendly competition and choice is always good for the consumer and the market as a whole.

No hard ETA on our bumper. We should have a prototype to look at in a week or two though.

i will be watching for them i really want to pick one up asap! Would love to have it for work use as well as getting myself out of a jam!

There is no confusion.

It accomodates the integrated solenoid winch the same way the ARB does. Inside and 90 degrees from the way the winch was designed to be mounted.

One of the key points of an integrated solenoid winch is to have everything front and center to monitor/solve any problems. Why hide it underneath the bumper?

Don't say security, as underneath is no more secure.

jeffw is it possible to mount a non intergrated i have a ramsey rep8000 from the jeep i blew up. it is a great winch only used it about 5 times so i dont really want to get rid of it.

rep 8000 should fit fine. Verify before you buy, though. I haven't seen the specs on the newest models.

i have to say im more than happy with all my clamini stuff i got in a wreck with my bumper and 3 inch suspension and all it has is one little dent in the bumper my frame on the other hand is jacked and there still trying to staiten it i have to say well done calmini on all your prodcts but on the other hand i have srocks sliders and love those to

Calmini makes a superior product with but one Achilles heel. Their powdercoating SUCKS.

End result. A $27,000 vehicle with a RUSTY bumper at both ends. Look else where bud.

If appearance means nothing to u, go with calmini. They make a beautiful bumper. But it only stays that way for bout 2 weeks.

The [powde3rcoating on mine started with the edges and it came off in entire strips. From there it worked its way inward.

So there is a good side to having wrapped my 03 around that tree that refused to move.

The tree was OBVIOUSLY just trying to help me scare the rust off of my bumpers:)

I had the same problem with mine. Powdercoat came off in strips.If I get one for my 2005, I think I will have the powdercoat redone myself before I put it on. Hate that dull grey color anyway!

This is definitely one of those no right answer/personal preference things. We do an exposed winch design on some of our other bumpers like this Sidekick/Tracker bumper we just completed:



The reason I didnt on the X was bec the grill sticks out so far.

With a standup intergrated solenoid, all that space is wasted under the grill and the bumper sticks out a good 4-5" further than it needs to. Look how tight the edge of the bumper is to the grill here:



To stand up a integrated solenoid winch in front of the grill, the bumper has to be moved out quite a bit. I didnt want to have it sticking out that much further than necessary.

Jim,

How far are you with the design of the 05 bumper?. Looking at the radiator and how low it goes I have a concern with the overall improvement of the approach angle. can you elaborate on what you have found so far?

Claus, I wouldnt want to approach much with the stock bumper and no skid plate. If you dont clear it, things get ripped off. That goes for about any vehicle though.

Keep in mind, it's rare that you have to attack an obstcale as wide as the truck head on. They are usually narrower (boulders) or if they are as wide as the truck (like a ledge) you attack them at an angle. In these cases clearance at the tires is what matters most. You'll probably gain at least a foot here.



Plus, with a steel bumper and skid, you can just ramp up things if you want.

The radiator really becomes a non-issue with a good skid. It's still higher than the crossmember. I think the pure approach angle will be similar to better than the previous gen, certainly not much worse.

Prototype sneak peak pic posted here: Mfg Row

Is this war being waged as a chess game played via mail sent by pony express?

A little more action would make the "war" more interesting

you high?, dude your post makes no sense

No sense? Thats OK. Just venting a little frustration. When was the last we have heard something new from Jim? Maybe ~ 2 weeks ago.

And Calmini? maybe 2 MONTHS ago.

Armor for the 05 may not be slower than expected, but certainly slower than desired.

My $$ is still on Shrock to actually deliver product 1st - and I suspect both suppliers will ultimately deliver good and solid bumpers, with differing features, +s and -s.

I think he's just busy. He's working on Rear Bumper and Skid Plates too. BTW, the last time he posted was about that, on september 3rd. He's not very far.

a nother way to solve the powdercoating issue is to have spray on bedliner sprayed on it i had it done to my bumper and it made it look way better i had line-x spryed it costed me 110 for it

from Fastdrmr today re: the latest response from Calmini on bumpers:

4. Bumpers - rears will be produced first. These should be out also before end of September. As mentioned elsewhere, only 3 orders have been placed. Front bumpers are going to be next... only 2 orders.

The question is, how many people buy a product sight unseen? I know there will be your diehard Calmini fans that will buy it just because of brand, but how many of them have 05's?

I was planning on getting the Calmini front bumper for the 05 until I saw the Shrockworks design. I am willing to wait on that one.

I don't understand the whole approach angle gripe with the '05. I think the approach angle looks great even with accommodating the integrated solenoid..........

Jeff - you must own stock in an integrated winch company...every post has an integrated winch mention in it, even about approach angles?



The approach angle of the '05 is limited by the really low radiator mount once you remove all the plastic OEM crap....

and by the length of the protruding area of the bumper itself...which, on the Calmini design, sticks out further than the Shrock design...

which is why the Shrock has a better approach angle, and why the front skid that comes std with the Shrock bumper lets the X ramp up from that low radiator mount w/o ripping the fool thing off.

That low radiator mount on the '05's are pretty much the X's achilles tendon, as the rest of the truck's guts are tucked up WAY better than on the pre-'05's.

Hmmmm...I think Shrock providing a way to mount the winch under the bumper, rather than in front of the grill, allows the Shrock bumper to tuck tight into that space (where the Calmini bumper MAKES you mount the winch), which hurts the Calmini's approach angle.

(I know, your reason for mentioning that... for a bumper that requires an integrated/front of grill mounted winch....the Calmini's approach angle does not look too bad, considering that design limitation)





One thing I've noticed over the years regarding approach (and departure) angles...unless you wheel where it's come up, you can go through life never knowing it was a problem...until it stops you.

A perfect example was a guy I was wheeling with at ECXC...he had a brush guard of all things, had heard it ruined approach angles, but had never had a problem before, and figured, it must not be a big deal...the day before...

We got to a ledge that even the stockers managed to get over (We were herding a diverse group...)...and he just could not get over it...we stacked A LOT of rocks - built a stair case, to get him over...

he went back and looked at it some more, saw the marks on the rocks where he had banged the guard against trying to clear it...and how low on the rocks the marks were...

scratched his head, and declared he now understood what the big deal was....and that he was ordering a shrock bumper to fix it as soon as he got home.



The same thing happens as the trails get harder...you eventually run into an obstacle that you needed more clearance to get over...either angle or height, etc...and until then, you feel that you had enough.

You also feel like the trails YOU did were tough, and that you know what you're talking about...I was around 18 or so, and was making money running their vegas or other 2wd cars and so forth on these local trails further than or as far as guys with 4wd could get, on bets, etc....and I felt invincible...

I went on a run with a few to another unfamiliar set of trails, and damn if you can't get a stock chevy malibu to clear 2' waterfall ledges...I had two drivers side tires up/down, against side wall rocks, tried backing at angles, etc...my whole repetoire of tricks..but, w/o getting out to stack or rope or other "cheating"...I was beat (-$)...and realized the equipment made a difference afterall, once you got past a certain level of terrain...

I mean, we spend A LOT of $ to get from a 1.5" PML to a 3" lift...that extra 1.5" seems important, and DOES help get over stuff...and a few degrees of better approach angle is the same benefit, its like having the equivalent amount of lift to get over the obstacle, w/o raising the center of gravity to get it.

So - the more you wheel (Since the mid -'70's for me anyway...), the more you see these things happen over and over for each newbie as they go through the learning process.

One of the breakthoughs was less of a massive bumper...huge protruding cow catchers looked sturdy enough, but got in the way on the trails, some more than others...getting the bumper to stick out as little as possible, cutting off the rear ends of the pick-ups bed to improve the departure angles...these things all made the rigs more capable.

If you tried to climb a steep hill with a bike rack sized spare tire mount that stuck way out...you whacked the spare on the ground on the way up...if you mounted the spare closer to the rear door, you didn't whack it on the way up...or...on the way down/coming off a ledge, etc.

So - X's are now evolving too.

Sure does. If you don't believe that's where winches are going, I've got some Betamax sh!t I can sell ya!


Integrated solenoid is where winch technology is going. Most of the newer, nicer winches feature it already. Winch development follows the Jeep and big truck industries who are not hampered by small, hollow bumpers. Also, an exposed winch is easier to get to for service and troubleshooting. If I had a new truck, I wouldn't want to be "holed in" by winch mount inside a hollow bumper.

Regardless, just my preference. As a former metal fabricator, I can admit that both Shrock and Calmini make kickass products!

P.S. Teej: That pic posted of the X has about a 60 degree approach nagle from the front tire. When the last time u climbed a 70 degree hill?

Love the Shrock design. Already pinching pennies to get that one. I figure it's like making one more payment a year for a really cool looking and functional product.

Its usually more of an issue as you come down off a steep drop...which can be even steeper than 70 degrees....

The kind where the belts and your legs are holding you back and you're staring straight down...coming down off steep drops to a flat or up again section, is probably the prime example for me at least, where you either shovel the nose, or make it....not a lot of clearance options when you're still on a slope and typically not wanting to get too sideways, etc..

And that would be followed closely by trying to get over a steep ledge or boulder, etc..., some can be more like 90 degrees...and you need to side bite to get a start up the edges before clearing, etc...depending on its height....but, at least if the rear is fairly straight, you can get away with more sideways options for clearance, etc.

So - Hell Yeah...more than 70 degrees is common if you're on that kind of terain (My favorite terrain, actually....rocks....Mmmmm.)



Some of the jeeps that had road armor/protruding bumpers, etc... would shovel badly coming down...nose dive the bottom, and sit there ass up/nose planted...some times with the rear tires now hanging, but the fronts compressed, and no where to go, stuck between a rock and a steep place....and we have to jack the front bumper up, stack, etc... to get them out of it.



I think the earliest winches were all integrated...so, its not a new idea...and at least on the warns, even the remote solinoid winches can use a integrated type mount for the solinoid if you like that sort of thing...so its not like having to use integrated is better than being able to easily use either.



If the Calmini had decent powder coat and didn't stick out so damn far, it would be great...they make really well built stuff other than those issues...the build quality itself is nice...its just the Shrock is already what the Calmini could have been.

I'm gonna call bullsh!t on this.

First off, it's a metal product. If the buyer doesn't like the powder coat, they can spend $50 for another coat. Another coat is a good idea regardless. Anyway, NO powdercoat will hold out indefinitely under a vehicle.

I haven't seen evidence that the Shrock powdercoat lasts longer than Calmini. If you're going to down the Calmini product, I expect to see some hard evidence of a controlled test where their powdercoat was proven to be inferior. If the evidence isn't there, spouting off about it is nothing more than libelous propaganda.

Vince has been running the Calmini bumper for years. He has run the same difficult trails (and more) as the guys running the Shrock. While your argument about the approach angle may be true, it is certainly not the '05 Xterra's "Achilles heel".

As I said before, both bumpers kick a$$. My preference is the Calmini because IMO it looks better (with hoops) and keeps the winch more accessible.

Don't tell people that the Calmini bumper is a significant liability offroad unless you have documented scenarios ot back it up. Since nobody has the bumpers on '05, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

So far, it looks fine to me.......

*cough* *cough* bullshit *cough* *cough*...

It may feel like 70 degrees, but it's not... anything over 40 degree side-angle, and you've got one side of wheels off the ground, heading for the other side... How do I know? 'Cause at +/- 39 degrees, I had one side of the truck in the air; both wheels off the ground. If I didn't have a locker, I would have kept right on going, 'cause I wouldn't have been able to keep driving straight. It was at slow speed, so there was no denying what angle the truck was in. 70 degrees, and you'll be crawling out your driver's side window, wishing you had built a cage, afterall...

As for the front/rear clearance, sure, 70 degrees, even 90 degrees are possible, for a 2' tall object... Anything taller, and you can forgetta' bout it... Not unless you've figure out someway to make the tires climb up a verticle face... Not gonna' happen.

He was talking about a 70 degree approach angle and therefore using a side approach to "bite" on it so as to clear the bumper.

I will be the first to call bs on you driving on 2 wheels while at 39 degrees... any video?

The powdercoat on my Calmini sliders was pretty shitty. Infact, it was coming off before I even put them on my truck. Oh well, I still like the sliders...just have to paint them every now and then. My Calmini control arms are flaked too! In contrast, my ARB powdercoating is completely bulletproof and after 4 years is still solid except where I've made intentional modifications. It's not about steel being steel either way, it's about how the process is done. I think Calmini needs to find a new powdercoater.

As for looks and function, I've never cared much for the Calmini bumpers. The front bumpers look like ass and none of their bumpers have that much functionality, IMO. I wouldn't spend my money on them since they wouldn't fit my needs. I do like lots of other Calmini products, so I'm not just bashing Calmini. I just don't care for their bumpers.

Schrocks bumper for the '05 looks superb so far. If I had an '05 and were looking for a bumper, that's where I would put my money whether it's first or not.

Just my worthless opinion!

Any updates on availabilities and recommendations?

Shrock will begin to ship bumpers this month.
Calmini I have not heard of any dates yet.

I've stood my truck on both the front and back bumpers. The front on Fins-n-Things after driving off a 3' vertical shelf (thanks Andy ), and once while trying to get up a large rock blob here in AZ. I got the truck so far up, maybe 2-3' off the ground) and it started to buck as traction became scarce. When it hopped up, I fell too far down and momentum grabbed us (gravity sucks) and the truck hit the ground, teetered back onto the tire, and by the grace of G-D, it fell forward again back onto the rock I'd just fallen off of.. They're both Calmini and they both have protected the truck just as expected. As far as approach angles, I have climbed 70* rocks and had to hit it at an angle to get started, sure. But really Jeff, who else is out there going at it like that? There may be less than 7% of the people on XOC who wheel like you, TJ, or even me .. I like the look of the Shrockworks front, but hey :rolleyes: . If I got an '05, I'd spend my money with Calmini again because I know their stuff holds up to my abuse .

Mmmmmm ... if you're trying to crawl through washouts on deconverted logging roads, like paragliders exploring for launches do, 70°+ approach angle is pretty damned handy. My custom welded up jobbie of a bumper on my old Trooper had an effective approach a good bit better than 70°, and it was not terribly unusual to need every bit of it and more. Beat the living crap out of the stock rear doing dumb stuff like that, of course, but hey.

First off, nobody has even measured what the approach angle of the '05 Calmini bumper is with the lift. Secondly, it's not possible to climb a 70 degree slop with any vehicle.

All I'm saying is that the Calmini is a good bumper (IMO the best) that does not compromise off road capabilities with a properly lifted/ equipped vehicle.

WIDOWMAKER-

Been there, done that.

With a Calmini bumper, right?

I rest my case.

No. I was in the process of stopping, and as soon as I stopped moving, the passenger side started up. So at that point, I pointed the wheels down, and tapped the gas. Then I stopped, once the thing was not at that bad of an angle. But when it was stopped, I quickly glanced at the inclinometer (force of habit), and yeah, it was at 39 degrees. And it was incredibly stupid on my part to stop there, too.

edited to add:

ok, so technically, yeah, you can hit a 70* rock face (90* if you really want...) and climb up it, provided it's only around 24" or so tall, if you have 33" tires. But if it's much taller than that, you're not making it up in a Nissan. Not unless you've got 37"+ tires, and a hella' lot more torque than what we've got... Any bigger than 24" or so, and even if you do get your front tires up on it, US spec'd Nissans don't have the break-over angle to do it. Wheelbase is too long and/or tires are too small.

But if you want to see something freaking amazing... find the vids from Nationals last year, of the UROC circuit... They had +/- 80* hill climb, at least 20' up. And yes, some buggies even made it w/o a spotter on rope. Now THAT was an incline!

Maybe you missed it the first time, I've driven up that 7' rock . (and it was severely dug out at the bottom when I did..) '01 SE Xterra w/ stock drivetrain on 33s

EDIT to add- Let's not confuse the issue, Buggys are buggys (UROC video link)

Ugg...

Ok, I'm gonna' be a dick, one more time... Hopefully y'all will forgive me, after I lay down the smack...

Granted, things ALWAYS look/feel tougher when you're driving on 'em... It's tiring to hear of magical feats of offroaders...

So, first, I'm establishing that this is widowmaker, near MOAB in Utah:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/others/other1.htm

And hopefully the original owner of the pics won't mind, but here they are, in case you don't want to follow the links.

Photo 1, as you're approaching, as seen from the dash:


Photo 2, as seen from the bottom:


And finally, photo 3, from the side view:


It's photo 3 I'll be working with...

For a measuring the angles, please take a look at THIS photo:



You'll easily see that the Jeep in the photo is at a 38* angle. With his rear tire almost touching the face. The rock face of Widowmaker, is roughly 49*. And that's a very generous angle line, I might add.

For those that have the ability, and would like to try to call BS, please use the following files for proof:

AutoCAD 2000 DWG file
Attached Image File Necessary

I'm not saying Widowmaker is easy. Hell no. What I'm saying, is there's no f*ing way a stock, reasonable modified, or even SAS'd Nissan is doing a 70 degree incline. It's NOT gonna' happen. It may *feel* like 70 degrees, but you're not even close!!!

Ok, first, great job on the illustration . I have wheeled with Stu, great guy . Second, I'll admit I actually never topped the second tier of the obstacle, but my rear did clear the top of the first (and disputed) surface. My driveshaft started slipping out of the SY, relieving me of fluids rapidly, so I backed down. Third, as I'd stated previously, the bottom was dug out considerably further than is illustrated in either of our photos. So much so in fact, that a large pool of water, tranny and diff fluids, and G-D knows what else had gathered at the bottom. My dog drank some of that, but that's neither here nor there. But the approach angle was so steep, that my spare, mounted on the Calmini tire carrier, was covered with that nasty fluid goo half way up the tire. So you do the math and figure out that angle, I really don't care.. After physically walking the wall and inspecting for myself before calculating the risk it involved to myself and my vehicle, I crawled up on my line and set a wheel to the wall as 7 or 8 dudes stood around, then I goosed it. I got up, and that's that.


Edit to add- Hey this guy says 70* too

LINK TO THAT ARTICLE

Porche - I got your back on this one.



Most people over estimate the angle that they are off camber on, and the steepness of the hill they're climbing/decending, etc...because the seat of the pants makes it feel steeper due to the Oh SHIT! factor. (Shit is a gravitational lubricant...)



The REAL purpose of the decent approach angle on a front bumper/departure on a rear bumper...has little to do with the steepness of the slope...as you are 100% right that most rigs can't climb that steep a slope w/o massive traction aid.

For me at least...its more like a point of impact obstacle...like a ledge/stair step...or, coming down off a steep drop.

So, I can approach a rock that, if it were a mountain, I could never climb it...but, if its just a ledge or step I can finagale my way onto...being able to bite onto the ledge face and ride up and over, maybe make a top of ledge turn to get an inside rear tire to bite too and boost me over...etc...

....or to come down off a ledge in a typical jersey face plant...and be able to hit a tire before metal or plastic hit...that's worth it to me.

So being able to clamber over a sheer ledge face 3' tall is not the same as climbing El Capitan (sic?) or the Palisades on the Hudson River...etc.



So I can approach something steep, and bite it, and eat it for dinner....as long as its not so tall I run out of wheelbase or traction, etc.



People get so loyal to their brands...myself included...but we have to step back and get a reality check once in a while.

OK - So one bumper works better than all the others...but you like one of the other bumpers better...that's OK....its not like the other bumpers don't work....hell, there's guys who wheeled with grill guards for years before they ran into terrian that made them throw in the towel and ditch the guard...

The one's who wheel where they just don't approach that type of obstacle, and just need a place to mount the winch, will never miss the few more degrees of clearance.

If you wheel where you WANT those few degree back...then you need to get something that gives it to you.

Its the same argument about 32's vs 33's...

Hell, its just a half inch more clearance, and a inch more width...what obstacle would you make it with 33's, and NOT make it with 32's?

For a lot of terrain, it just won't matter...for SOME terrain, the extra flotation/contact patch/clearance actually makes a real difference.

I have 33's...and I know 35's would get me even more places...but I have made MY compromise based on MY terrain, which includes 40-60K miles a year on streets, in addition to a statistically miniscule amount of miles off road....and 35's would KILL me.

I wheeled sat and sun, pretty much two full days...I think we covered a total of about 25 off road miles maximum, maybe less than 20...compared to the street miles, that's nothing.



So - If you like 32's instead of 33's, or a Calmini over a Shrock...its all personal preference...and, unless you wheel where you need either to make it, it won't matter which you get...its win - win.

Hey man, kudos to making it up that at all!

I don't want to try to say it's easy, for sure. Honestly, any steep incline over 35 degrees or so is pretty darn tough. It's just that most people are really bad at judging incline angles when they're out there. I mean, the steepest an interstate roadway can be is about a 9% grade; that's only a little over 5 degrees (inverse tangent of 9/100).

I don't think there's any way my truck could make it up widowmaker; there's a smaller version like that at Slade, KY, where I go, and I get hung-up on the frame every time. Break-over angle just isn't nearly good enough!

TJ, you slay me.. And how do you type so damned fast?..

I wasn't sure myself, someone told me no one had tried before me..
Aahhh, but the X-factor (had to) is the magical sandstone slickrock of Moab...

could be. The one at slade is immediately after coming out of a creek... The rear tires are still in the water when you're first starting up. I haven't been able to make it, but I keep trying!

That's kinda what I thought.

Still Dan, that is AMAZING that you made it up in your X!

Back to the topic of the thread . . .

Shrockworks in the lead! Can't wait!!!

That bumper so far is beautiful. I'm not sure of Jim's intentions, but I don't think their tubular hoops theme will fit.

If they are angled right I think the tubes would look fine.

But I do agree, the bumper looks great without them.

Ok, here is the almost done product with bumper bars - extremely cool and bad ass looking!

Any more photos out there? --of any brand bumper on the new generation X

There is one of the Calmini, I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:
Here ya go

that Calmini is yuckzilla

As much as I HATE the idea of having my winch rope hidden from view, and fighting tangled rope in the dark.....the massive approach value and sexy styling of the Shrock is beggining to melt my heart

Whoa!!!! Better get these before it goes any further.