WWJD = What Would Jack (Bauer) Do?
Answer = He would knee cap the butt munch with his Glock 40, then strap him to a chair and electrocute him to get the desired information. He did it to his own brother. Gotta love Jack. I remember when he was being tortured, he faked passing out so when the guy came to wake him up, he lunged and tore a chunk out of the guy's neck with his teeth. Good times.

Sorry. Mini-hijack there. As you were...

Maybe you should define what qualifies someone to be considered human and worthy of human rights.

You people on the left are always claiming the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

At what point does the right of the many to continue to live outweigh the human rights you wish to place upon the few who wish to brutally murder the many?

Waterboarding is torture pure and Simple.........the only time water should be used is to throw at the fucker to wake him up, after a nice little session with a car battery some wires and a pair of genitals. Prior to that a dull pair of pliers to the fingernails would be in order. If all else fails a nine iron to the foot soles works wondering....Wollen sie nicht sprechen dann haben wir andere metoden !!!

Like I said, I have no problem with it if it's deemed necassary, I just question the ability of those that do the "deeming"?

I realize that terrorists not being covered under the Geneva convention, and when I compared to an infantry man, I did not mean it literally. I meant some low level non important type.

I also realize that many we are holding captive, some of which are US citizens, are being subjected to this torture with the only due cause being the "they are terrorists!" finger being pointed at them, all the while many of Saddam's family, and other Saudi royals tied to 9/11 walk this earth free and clear. I question that... I mean shouldn't we?

rift, you don't think it could ever be you? Need to open your eyes. It can be anybody who's in the wrong place at the right time. Our government has slowly been putting the laws into place that will circumvent the rights of its citizens. Stuff like this is the slippery slope of precedence that could one day lead to our city's police force being allowed to utilize these methods on us etc. If you think its far fetched, you better read your history....

Today waterboarding "terrorists", tomorrow waterboarding "suspected terrorists", five years waterboarding protesters, 10 years waterboarding for suspicion of illegal activities....

Remember this is the country where moderation and common sense hasn't had a foothold in our society for a good fifty years now. Our children can be sex offenders in elementary school. Our parents can be abusive for spanking. Dodgeball is too violent. Everyone must have trophy in little league or their fragile minds will be damaged......

This is a weird thread. I find myself agreeing more with those I usually vehemently disagree with...

I don't have a problem with using torture methods in general, but I feel it's one of those "there's a time and a place for it" things.

I do not have enough faith in our current government to believe that they are using this method wisely.

I do not have enough faith in our government that they are even capturing the right people let alone true "terrorists" in most cases.

I don't even know why 9/11 lead us almost completely out of Afghanistan/Pakistan and into Iraq.

I don't know why Saudi Arabia is one of our allies when the bulk of the terrorists we are supposedly fighting are all stemming from there.

chicks dig wake boarding

Samuel, I agree. This is a weird thread. I am agreeing with you, when so far, I've found myself on a pretty opposite plain of thought than you. I don't think it could "never" be me. I just don't believe America will ever deteriorate to the point that this stuff is done willy-nilly to our own citizens on our own ground. I agree that logic has seemingly flown out the window in this country, but I don't know if we would agree with why. I see it as a result of general moral decay and the influx of hyper-liberal organizations who live and breathe to demolish anything that would allow a person to assert that there are absolutes *cough*ACLU*cough*.

Also, I agree with you that we probably should never have pulled out of Afghanistan. We very nearly caught OBL on more than one occasion, yet we're still there just kind of dicking around. And, yes, I agree with you also that I don't like our relationship with Saudi. It's where OBL came from and it's where his family still is. They sit there and pretend to be innocent, but all the while, they're hiding their blood-covered hands behind their backs. That relationship, I am confident, is about oil. Pure and simple. The war isn't. But that relationship is.

P.S. I don't trust Syria either. That place is a time-bomb waiting to go off.

So if a policeman beats the living shit out of a "suspect," we shouldn't be outraged? I mean, as long as the cop doesn't break any bones on the guy or anything...there's no permanent damage...

No permanent damage...fucking puh-lease...

I agree.

Wartime versus civilian law enforcement. Apples and oranges. Being a criminal is not the same as being a terrorist. Please tell me I don't need to explain that to you. :rolleyes:

Video

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/12/11/cooper.waterboarding.t1.cnn

So what are you really saying? Some more actual clarification is warranted.

Are you saying the Bush administration, or maybe even Republicans in general cannot be trusted to do the "deeming"?

Who should we trust? Should we trust the Democrats? Hillary Clinton? Joe Biden? Barack Obama? Should we trust the judiciary and people like Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg or Justice Breyer?

Should we trust the NY Times, Washington Post, NBC, The Today Show, the people at the DailyKos to decide?

Please tell us who you trust with your life and the lives of your children in deciding such issues.

Quote:

I realize that terrorists not being covered under the Geneva convention, and when I compared to an infantry man, I did not mean it literally. I meant some low level non important type.

I also realize that many we are holding captive, some of which are US citizens, are being subjected to this torture with the only due cause being the "they are terrorists!" finger being pointed at them, all the while many of Saddam's family, and other Saudi royals tied to 9/11 walk this earth free and clear. I question that... I mean shouldn't we?

Who is being subjected to this torture? Name some names.

I think the American public is being subjected to a lot of torture regarding the subject of torture.

The US citizens that have been caught have not been tortured. What proof do you have that they were tortured? Those people have also been granted their due process and habeas corpus rights.

Yes... I think we are all in agreement that the Saudi's are a problem. How do you propose we go about dealing with them?

The Saudi's are a very difficult problem considering almost every former president and many former members of Congress, both Democrat and Republican, takes money from them for various efforts. The same goes for other wealthy Arab countries like the United Arab Emirates. They practically own Washington DC.

Who do you think donates a large part of the money for some of these presidential libraries? Where do you think organizations like The Carter Center get their money? Who do think finances much of the Middle East Studies departments of most American, Canadian, and European universities? It's Arab money.

We just released a bunch of terrorist captives back to Saudi Arabia. They are being treated like V.I.P.'s.

Former terrorist captives who have been released have been recaptured again trying to kill Americans. I don't see any outrage by the "usual suspects" that we let terrorists go free.

Quote:

Need to open your eyes. It can be anybody who's in the wrong place at the right time. Our government has slowly been putting the laws into place that will circumvent the rights of its citizens. Stuff like this is the slippery slope of precedence that could one day lead to our city's police force being allowed to utilize these methods on us etc. If you think its far fetched, you better read your history....

Today waterboarding "terrorists", tomorrow waterboarding "suspected terrorists", five years waterboarding protesters, 10 years waterboarding for suspicion of illegal activities....

You used to be a rational guy Samuel. It seems you are now a member of the 'tin foil hat' crowd.

What happened to you?

That's a huge pile of crap Moby.

The subject of this thread is waterboarding captured international terrorists.

Extrapolating that into an issue of local cops beating a suspect is a pile of crap and nothing but obfuscating the original subject as a whole.

Madman,

I'm saying I don't trust the Federal government as a whole, dems, reps, etc. all included. They have all, over the last 6 years, proven to be completely corrupt and incompetent in my opinion.

As of the here and now with the current state of the world? Me, and that's it.

As far as the torture in general goes, I don't disagree with its use, but I feel like torture in the hands of our current government body is akin to a child wielding a chainsaw. I hope we tread lightly with these tactics as the reputation of countries who often employ them is less than positive on the world stage.

I still am, but I see a trend within our country that seems to lend credence to the fact that we are all too quickly giving up our ethics and liberties for what may ultimately be perceived freedom and safety, and I think that could be dangerous if not metered with some hard questions that we as a nation need to start answering.

Moby-

What are you talking about? You are comparing a civilian beaten by a cop to a captured armed insurgent? Apples to oranges.....

S.

Are you saying we should go back to the policy prior to 9/11 that Islamic terrorism wasn't a problem to be forcibly dealt with?

Who do you trust to combat terrorism? The Pittsburgh Police Department? The Fire Department?

I think you are forgetting that when the feds weren't doing anything serious about terrorism, that resulted in a major attack and the murder of almost 3000 people right here on American soil.

Many terrorist plots have been thwarted in the interim years. Some of them because of the use of waterboarding.

That is too easy and convenient to forget and even ignore.

Quote:

As of the here and now with the current state of the world? Me, and that's it.

As far as the torture in general goes, I don't disagree with its use, but I feel like torture in the hands of our current government body is akin to a child wielding a chainsaw. I hope we tread lightly with these tactics as the reputation of countries who often employ them is less than positive on the world stage.

Ahhh.... We are back to the bogus "reputation in the world" argument.

Do you think that many of our own intelligence operatives and Special Forces soldiers are waterboarded and trained in what to expect if they are captured because no one else waterboards? Please tell you me you are not that naive.

We waterboard our people during training because everyone else uses waterboarding.

You are just one of the many people who are falling into the trap being used by nefarious people who want us to take this very important tool out of our arsenal of available interrogation techniques.

How far are you willing to go along with others in weakening this country? That is what the whole debate is all about. Don't kid yourself about it for one minute.

Quote:

I still am, but I see a trend within our country that seems to lend credence to the fact that we are all too quickly giving up our ethics and liberties for what may ultimately be perceived freedom and safety, and I think that could be dangerous if not metered with some hard questions that we as a nation need to start answering.

If you think that waterboarding people like Khalid Sheik Mohammed or Abu Zabidah(sp) is equivalent to American citizens giving up any of their liberty... or a violation of any sort of ethics, I don't know what the hell to say to you.

As a nation we did ask a lot of hard questions right after 9-11. Most of them included how did we allow this happen.

It appears that many are trying as hard as they can to allow it to happen again.

You seem to have been drinking from a very dirty fountain of late.

Is waterboarding considered torture? Yes, but very mild in comparison to what terrorists do to us and their own people.

Shit, I had worse stuff done to me in college when I was pledging a fraternity.

Rift- very surprised with your stance. It is not very Christian like. Not critizing, just pointing it out.

Samuaeul- same with you. You are former military. You understand what needs to be done to obtain certain objectives.

For all the bleeding hearts on the left here, if you considering waterboarding severe torture, what do you considering the beheadings, burning of bodies, chopping off of limbs, and the shots to head that the terrorists do to the people they catch? I do not believe the US would stoop to that level to obtain information.

Another thing, do you all think that we have not been using some form of torture, in the history of the US to obtain informtion? I am sure the American Revolutionsists tortured British soldiers to give up their camps. Same during the Civil War. None of this is new stuff going on. Some things we are just better off not knowing.....

S.

That statement right there is the meat of it. We go too far one way or the other and we weakening our country. I question if we have gone too far in one direction as a reaction to 9/11. I am not siding with any "faction". The left is doing it, the right is doing it... we have to find a solid middle ground. We need balance and I don't think we have it right now. As far our world reputation goes, I don't see how it's a bogus claim? Should we not care to some degree how we are perceived by the rest of the world powers? Do we not judge other countries by their actions and deal with them accordingly?

Not at all. I'm saying that it's very easy for a nation, especially a nation who is passing more and more laws that circumvent citizens rights, to fall into that very trap. History shows this again and again and I am wary that we are falling into that trap.

Stone - Absolutely, but I question our current governments competence in utilizing the tools (our military, torture, intelligence) that are necessary to obtain certain objectives. It's the politics that keep fucking this shit up.

I'm saying it's complete bullshit to say it doesn't cause any permanent damage. To claim that is beyond specious...it's flat out dishonest.

You know...I really wish you conservatives would stop pulling out this bullshit comment.

You are the one's ok with torture...why don't YOU move...say to North Korea - nobody in THAT government is going to mind if you're ok with it.

To you cowards who will give up your righteousness for the illusion of safety, I say fuck you. Anyone who engages in torture to protect themselves isn't worthy of protection.

I want rule of law, stiff upper lip, and I'll happily go down with the ship--free, morally righteous, and sticking to my guns. We all die. If I die a good person, I'll die a good person. You want to die a coward who sold your morals for an illusion of safety, that's your business, but don't tell me you're the good guys!!! Sometimes good guys die at the hands of bad guys, but that's life! As for me, I won't sell my relationship with God to assuage your fear. Torture is wrong, no matter who does it. Murder is wrong, no matter who does it. This is inarguable. Wrong is wrong. Anyone who is willing to do anything, including the things that IN THIS SOCIETY we have found morally abhorrent, in order to stay safe, isn't worth fighting for. They are fucking cowards, and they deserve what they get.

NO SYMPATHY FOR COWARDS!!!

I'm skipping over a lot of previous posts because they go into too much detail over specific scenarios and most of them have the same problem: It is too easy to say waterboarding is good or bad, because the use of Waterboarding is modified with a specific target to make the good/bad point...
Or more simply:
Torturing terrorists is good.
Torturing newborn Babies is bad.
torturing the Guilty is good.
Torturing the innocent is bad.
Torturing Bin Laden is Good
Torturing American Soldiers is bad.

Someone mentioned that this is an argument of ethics, and that person is right.

Waterboarding is Torture, plain and simple. It doesn't matter who it is done to, innocent or guilty, it's torture.

The question isn't "How many lives does torture (Waterboarding) save," but rather "Under what circumstances should torture be allowed to be used?"

Now your ethics will dictate what you believe about the circumstances allowing the use of torture.

I, personally, am not against the use of torture. I think the threat of using torture can be just as effecient as torture itself for gathering information, a pshycological benefit of not banning the use of torture. However, I am against the use of torture aginst the wrong people. Torturing Bin Laden for information on Al Qaeda's plans - sure, go right ahead. Torture an American Citizen who knows nothing about Al Qaeda other than it was behind the 9/11 attacks - that's wrong (again, here the argument is modified by a specific target of the torture)

Why is "How many lives does torture save" the wrong answer:
The use of torture on the Columbine Shooters would have prented the incident and the death of their victims. The problem is that there was no knowledge of the plans until after they were executed. So how many students in how many schools over how many years would have had to have been tortured to prevent the incident? At what point does injustice of the number of wrongly tortured people outweight the justice of the saved lives? And, most importantly, who gets to make that judgement?

My opposition to Torture is based on the flaw in it's use. The idea of torture is sound, but the use of torture is the problem because people will utilize torture with as little as a suspicion of guilt or the hope that maybe some useful information can be gained.
The Japanese and Vietnamese tortured American soldiers with just the hope they may gain some useful information, and/or just to punish the Americans for opposing them. If that doesn't strike you as being wrong, then you must be a member of the Westboro Baptist Church.

And the problem we have concerning the use of torture is not just how the determination of whom whould be tortured is made, but who determines how torture should be used? No one seems to know who has that power, or under what circumstances torture will be allowed.

And maybe we aren't supposed to know, keeping a pshycoligcal edge on our enemies that they may beileve we will use torture, even if we don't.

However, I have no faith in this administration, with it's track record, to be making the right determination as to whom should be tortured and whom should not.

Hell, all of us on the board could be one waggin finger away from being waterboarded ourselves - no matter how supportive of the administration we seem to be.

Afterall, Madman, that could be part of your Al Qaeda cover before you blow us all up in a attack with your Al Qaeda Buddies.

And that's how easy it could be to become a victim of torture.

Think about that for a moment.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, That we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the Survival and success of liberty." - JFK

Let's just call it what it really is...

Simulated Drowning.

Let's see how far they get calling it that.

So extremely well said.