I love this quote by Greg Gutfeld in his article (first post) by the way:
Has anyone told this guy that the NYT, NPR, Tim Robbins, Sean Penn and Hugo Chavez really, really, really hate pulling plastic bags over their heads until they asphexiate and die?

Or how about that they really hate going swimming with their feet embedded in concrete?

You know, with a philosphy in life like that, getting rid of him might be a heck of a lot easier than we'd think.

Now I am supposed to be a member of Al Qaeda because I support waterboarding the worst of terrorist captives?

It's crap like that is the reason why most people can never take you people on the left serious.

Also, don't throw Ben Franklin quotes into the debate. International terrorists are not citizens of this country. They are enemies and enemy combatants and don't have the rights under the law granted to Americans.

We have NEVER previously given enemy combatants constitutional rights under our system. They have usually been executed after a military trial.

You people on the left need to start asking yourselves why all of a sudden you wish to grant the constitutional rights of American citizens upon foreign enemy combatants.

There is no historical precedent to back up any of your bullshit arguments regarding enemy combatants.

Even killing foreign enemy combatants is not in any way related to the liberties of American citizens. It never has been regardless of the amount of ridiculous propaganda you wish to throw around.

Shahram said it well...wrong is wrong. There is a flaw in people (or countries) that justify their own actions by citing the actions of others. Some of you claim the only people being tortured are "captured international terrorists." How do you know which of the however many people we've rounded up are terrorists and which just got caught in the net? You don't care because you just want somebody to suffer for what's been done to America.

You guys are pissed off because Osama and his crowd kicked our country in the nuts on 9/11. So am I. We've been chasing our own tails in Iraq instead of devoting every resource we have towards capturing Bin Laden, and if you're not pissed about that, you should be. You want justice, and so do I. I'm just not willing to become the enemy because of what the enemy did to us.

You want to protect America? Get some serious security in place on the border and in our ports before somebody smuggles a nuke across the Rio Grande or into the port of New Orleans and vaporizes a city. Make the TSA more than a joke. Those are things we need to work on.

You know, you guys point out the horrific things done by terrorists, the beheadings and so on. Well, in their minds, those actions are justified because of the horrible things they think America has done. Then you say torture is justified because they behead people and fly planes into buildings. You're using the same justification they are. Can't you see that?

I know you can't see it, but I'm waving my hand over my head in that "Wow, that went way over your head" kind of way.

Did you happen to eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?

I know this is gonna sound crazy, but............no?

Ok, so terrorists (doesn't matter their religion, nationality, etc...) kill every single person that you care about. But it could have been prevented with intel. Intel that wasn't available because we're not allowed to even think nasty thoughts about terrorists, much less question them (questioning terrorists...just asking them what they know, nothing more...might harm their psyche don't you know) about what they know. You're seriously OK with that? I thought your random posts were for comedic relief, your ideas on this make me wonder.

OK...where did I miss this...where did I miss people saying you couldn't interrogate them?

Talk about obfuscation...

The CIA says they only waterboarded three people since 9-11. Anyone who has any objections to the three bastards that were waterboarded has some very serious issues.

Where the fuck is all this evidence to back up the rhetoric that you people on the left are throwing around that many people are being waterboarded or tortured by our government?

The level of irresponsibility of you people making these claims is insurmountable and completely inexcusable under any circumstances.

Quote:

You guys are pissed off because Osama and his crowd kicked our country in the nuts on 9/11. So am I. We've been chasing our own tails in Iraq instead of devoting every resource we have towards capturing Bin Laden, and if you're not pissed about that, you should be. You want justice, and so do I. I'm just not willing to become the enemy because of what the enemy did to us.

That is also completely ridiculous. How are you or any of us becoming the enemy by waterboarding or even killing enemy combatants?

We killed enemy combatants in every single conflict this country has been involved. What makes Islamic terrorists any different in your mind? They are actually far more ruthless than any other enemy faced previously, yet you fail to realize that fact. You are convinced that they are no different than a common criminal. You seem to think they are worthy of the same constitutional rights afforded a common criminal or US citizen.

That is a dangerous mode of thought.

It is also nothing but a lie to say that Osama Bin Laden or Afghanistan is being ignored. There are 40,000 coalition troops in Afghanistan.

Also, if you are so sure of the location of Bin Laden, maybe you should be out looking for him.

Capturing OBL is also not the end of the war against Islamic terrorism. Sometimes when I read stuff posted by certain people, I often wonder are we better off not capturing him. I wonder how much "rights" certain people will want to confer upon him.

Quote:

You know, you guys point out the horrific things done by terrorists, the beheadings and so on. Well, in their minds, those actions are justified because of the horrible things they think America has done. Then you say torture is justified because they behead people and fly planes into buildings. You're using the same justification they are. Can't you see that?

Thanks for the terrorist point of view and justifying terrorists actions with your insane moral equivalencies.

People like you will wind up getting a lot of people in this country killed with that type of thinking.

Something, somewhere, somehow, is going to kill every single person I care about--my wife, my son, my friends and family. How and when they die is, for the most part, out of my control. I have no illusions about how little power I personally have to protect them from the big, bad world. But how they die and when they die is of much less concern to me than how they live! I want to see my son grow up a human being who does not torture or murder, and does not condone others to torture or murder so that he doesn't have to deal with the big, bad world. I love my family more than anything, but I won't sacrifice their relationship with God so that they can be safe. No one is ever safe. Safety is a temporary condition at best, an insidious lie at worst. Everyone will be killed. Not everyone will live righteously. I won't have my family live like cowards, and to do so, if I have to sacrifice my own safety, to show them that a just and righteous life can be lived, even when others are attacking you, then that's it. That's all there is to do.

The statement stands for itself Shahram. No amount of obfuscation or bullshit on your part can make it otherwise.

People like you and some of the others who try to claim that we are no different than the terrorists because we waterboarded a few of the worst of them, couldn't be further from the truth.

You use the issue for own ends or agenda.

Not a single person who thinks that "waterboarding is torture" has ever come up with a single solution or method to get information from these hardened terrorists. All of whom are well versed in interrogation methods and who even have their own training manuals. Most of whom are more than willing to give up their own lives for their cause.

These people are unlike any other enemy this country has faced. Many either don't realize that fact, or maybe some just don't care.

But, you know these people and their determination.

You yourself are a Muslim. You have never once that I have seen, denounced these Islamic fanatics... nor as a Muslim who claims to love his country,... have you ever offered a constructive method to combat these fanatics.

All I have ever seen you do is denigrate this country; the methods it uses to fight these Islamic fanatics; and denigration of anyone who supports the fight against Islamic terrorism.

How about some constructive dialog from you for a change. How about some ideas from an American Muslim who just might love his country more than he loves Islam.

I hope I am talking about you Shahram.

30,000 of those troops (the ISAF) are NOT looking for Bin Laden. Afghanistan may not be being ignored, but Bin Laden IS being ignored.

Nope, it's the direction our pussified society is heading. Ya know, there are no winners and losers in kids sports anymore; even if you fail miserably at something you still get told you did an amazing job; don't be honest, you might hurt someone's feelings waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. It's bullshit...ah fuck it, I'm not going to bother trying to open the eyes of the blind.

How can you say that Bin Laden is being ignored? That is nothing but complete bullshit and basically, Democrat, or left wing propaganda.

There would probably be no bigger prize for this administration than frog marching Bin Laden into a military tribunal.

Saying we are ignoring him is close to implying that we know where he is located. We don't know where he is. We don't know if he is being helped or hidden with the help of some other government. He could be a guest in Tehran for all anyone knows.

I think it is safe to say he is getting help. Are you willing to attack another country for one terrorist mastermind?

Maybe so. You seem to under the impression that tens of thousands of troops should be out looking for one guy.

Oh, come on man. Everyone will be killed? That's the most bullshit thing I've seen you type, ever, including your funny posts. Everyone will die, yes, but most people in this world aren't killed. Fucking hell, man, one person kills everyone you care about and it could have been prevented and you wouldn't fucking care that it wasn't prevented? That's a load of bullshit, and you know it. We all get it, Sharam, you disagree with everything Madman posts, it's getting old.

In the eyes of a hypersensitive coward, all criticism is denigration. He has no more defense than to cry "traitor" or "lunatic" at everyone who shows him his own cowardice. Since we're talking about "all we've ever seen" from each other, all I've ever seen from you is fear-mongering, hate, and brow-beating. I've never really summed you up with a word before, but that's what you are--a coward. Everything you've written, every time your fingers touch the keyboard, you show your fear. You warn others of the dangers that lurk behind every corner, around every hedgerow--the homosexual, the leftist, the druggie, the hippie, the illegal alien, the loonies, the atheists, the myriad enemies of America, legions of them, and all out to get....you. Everything that you can't wrap your incredibly limited mind around is a "major threat", a "major problem", everything to you is dangerous, out to hurt you.

You're a coward, Madman. I actually feel bad writing this, but you need to hear it. Your fear will kill you someday. And doubly worse, it will prevent you from living before it does.

I gotta tell ya, people don't just die spontaneously. Something's gotta kill them for them to die. That really wasn't the point of my post. Go back and read it again. Take your time with it. Chew on it. Move your lips while you read, if you need to. Would I want my family's murder to be prevented? Duh. What will I condone in order for that, not just to be prevented, but to have my government tell me that they can prevent it? Yeah...there's the rub.

Stuff like that seems to be your standard response Shahram.

Whenever you are confronted with any serious questions or response to any of your bullshit, it always the same. I am either a coward or some fear driven, hate filled individual with a limited mind. For a guy who tries to portray himself as an enlightened Libertarian type, your responses are nothing but standard left wing debate tactics.

Instead of expending all of your time and energy trying to attack me and denigrate me for even having the nerve to question the "almighty Shahram", how about answering the questions I posed to you.

That is cowardice.

Oh, you mean the "Why do you hate America" questions?

You playin' the Hannity card on me, Brian?

I asked a lot more than that Shahram.

I'm not playing any card on you. You know that too. The only one playing here is you.

As far as XOC standards go on political debates of what can be considered serious issues, the debate on this topic has been fairly civil by XOC standards. That was at least until you jumped into the thread and started throwing around insults like you were giving away fatwas at a jihad convention.

You are even misquoting what I asked you.

Stop being a coward and answer the questions I asked of you.

If you are not a coward you would do so.

First of all, Madman, I never once said I wanted to grant Constitutional rights to non-American citizens - so don't put words in my mouth.

The quotes are related to American Liberties, but you obvously didn't get it.

read my post. Notice I said read, not re-read, because based on your comments you just read what you quoted cause your name was in it, and didn't read anything else I wrote.


Yes, I am also waving my hand over my head in that "Wow, that went way over your head" kind of way.



Holy shit, you couldn't have missed the obvious if you were fishing in the middle of the desert and then figured that you weren't catching anything because you were using the wrong bait.

No, I'm not calling you a member of Al Qaeda because you support waterboarding the worst of terrorist captives. I said it because you said wtaerboarding Terrosits is a good thing - your first line of your first post. You modify your argument by later poting that "Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding has also saved people's lives. You people on the left are always claiming you are concerned about the lives of innocent people. Waterboarding has saved the lives of innocent people."

So I make the accusation that you are a Terrorist - now follow along here, this is where you completely didn't get it the first time -
Let me break it down for you in a more simplified version so you can understand.

You argue Torture should be used on Terrorists, even if a few innocent people get hurt along the way, because that saves lives....

So, I promptly accuse you of being a terrorist.

Being a suspected terrorist, the administration uses torture to question you about your suspected terrorist ties - because by torturing terrorists the Government saves lives, even if a few innocent people get hurt along the way.

I'm not saying you are a terrorist, but showing how very quickly the arguement for Torturing terrorists can turn into a circular problem.

How hard is it to accuse someone of being a Terrorist anyway. You obviously thought I just called you one.

Let's also not forget, the 4 Terrorists who flew the planes on 9/11 attended flight schools and lived for some time in the USA.

So yeah, the use of torture on "terrorists" could severly impact a citizens civil liberties, should they be falsely accused of being a terrorist.

Now I also read that if it doesn't kill or cause damage it's not torture.
You obviously don't know the definition of the word:
Torture: 1a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY 1 : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

Your problem there Rockaholic is that you are basing some of things I have said on your own opinions and suppositions.

You think waterboarding is torture. I DO NOT think waterboarding is torture. If we were pouring water over people and hooking them up to hot electrodes, that would be torture. If we were pulling out their fingernails, that would be torture.

Waterboarding does not meet the definition of torture. If you are going to define torture to include some temporary mental anguish, then watching an episode of "Sex and the City" or listening to JayZ albums could be considered torture.

Actually many people have argued that pyschops like blasting annoying music is torture. That is completely ridiculous. What is next? Not supplying champagne cocktails and cigars will be considered torture? Is denying terrorists the Al Jazerah channel going to be considered torture in the near future?

I think the loud music has already been taken away as a tool. How far are we willing to go in defining down the definition of torture? How far are we willing to weaken ourselves and remove every single tool available to extract information?

If waterboarding is torture as you claim, that means the US government tortures many of their own people during training for their jobs.

Why does the government train people to endure waterboarding? It's not because no one else doesn't do it. Every government does it when they feel the circumstances are warranted. Most governments on earth do far, far worse.

Waterboarding is a tool. It is not torture. You are arguing from a position where you think waterboarding has already been established by everyone as torture. It has not been.

Maybe you personally do not. If I said that you personally did feel that way instead of making a statement regarding the political left, then I agree I would have been wrong.

However, there is no doubt that the political left has been engaged in a long drawn out fight within the system in this country and the judiciary to grant constitutional rights to foreign terrorists... or enemy combatants.

That is EXTREMELY dangerous to this country.

Considering that the Supreme Court has granted cert regarding this issue, I'm afraid that this country is headed in a very dangerous direction. All of it because of politics. None of it because of the law or past case law, history, or precedent. None of it with the best interests of this country in mind.

What's that saying.... "I have seen the enemy and the enemy is me". We are our own worst enemy.

If anyone would have asked almost anyone else on Sept. 12, 2001 if this country would be considering constitutional rights for foreign international terrorists, the 9-11 masterminds, or whether waterboarding the worst of those terrorists to prevent future attacks would ever be an issue in this country... they may have thought you would be insane.

But that is exactly what is occurring.

I think it's hilarious how you constantly single out my race and heritage as some deciding factor in the validity of my opinion. Funnier still how you never mention that I'm half Scottish and a Presbyterian. How come my love for this country isn't obfuscated by my hatred for the English? How come I'm never handing out insults like kippers at a fish smoking competition?

No, really, Madman, why do you always bring up my race?

What is hilarious is that you are trying to claim that Islam is a race... or at least in your case it is somehow a race.

Islam is NOT a race. Don't act like an idiot and try to make any questions regarding Islam into a bogus racial issue. You do nothing but try to obfuscate everything presented in your direction.

Poor little Shahram. You're such a victim.

Keep the race card in your pocket for left wing idiots who don't know any better. I don't give a damn about your racial background. I've never made a point of your racial background.

I asked you some questions because you are a Muslim. That has nothing to do with race. Most Muslims in the world are not Arab. Most are not even from the Middle East. You are not even of Arab extraction. I have always known that, yet somehow you are whipping out a race card. You are just as Caucasian as I am. You are just a pussy.

Let's get past your newfound "victimhood" status and go back to the original questions posed to you as a Muslim or Muslim American. What I said and asked is here.......

Well... What are your answers?

You are a Muslim. What is the Muslim American answer to solving the Muslim terrorist problem? Surely you must have some ideas.

I don't think that it is out of line to ask such a question. Especially of you since you constantly do nothing but attack everyone else for even being critical of Muslims and Islamic terrorism.

Islamic terrorists often kill more of other Muslims then they do anyone else.

So as a Muslim, and an American, what are your ideas for combating Islamic terrorism? Your fellow citizens would like to know. Muslim Americans have been very quiet regarding ideas on combating Islamic terrorism when they should be the ones with the most ideas.

The "official" Muslim organizations that claim to represent Muslims in this country like CAIR have terrorist connections. They also cry "victim" like you are doing right now so they can avoid questions. Are you one of them?

The media talks about the "moderate Muslims". Most Americans never hear from these elusive moderate Muslims. Why is that?

What is the "moderate Muslim" plan or ideas for fighting Islamic terrorism?

You have a big fucking mouth and an opinion about everything else except the group of which you are a part of and now trying to claim victim status as a part of that group. That's pathetic.

That says a lot about you Shahram.

People like you should be the ones at the forefront of this fight. Sadly that is not the case.

Go ahead...just continue the obfuscation.