Well...it seems that Castrol decided to sell Group 3 oil as Full Synthetic...so Mobil decided to see if that was fair, as Group 4 & 5 were really considered as Full Synthetics, as they had to be created chemically...

...whereas Group 3 were pretty much dino juice with extra cracking to refine it better, etc....

...so selling Group 3 was cheaper than selling Group 5...and Mobil1 was a Group 5, being threatened in the marketplace by a Group 3 Castrol labeled as if it were just as good.

The US Gov decided that "Synthetic" as regards to motor oil, has no legal meaning, and therefore...anyone could call pretty much any refined petroleum motor oil "100% Fully Synthetic Motor Oil", etc.

So - Mobil, and a bunch of other oil makers, like Penzoil, Quaker State, etc...dropped their Group 4 and 5 products from the shelves..and replaced them with/Introduced Group 3 motor oils...w/ changing the labels...so as to be cost competitive with each other.

The changes started a few years back...and have now been completed across the mass producer product lines.

There's almost no "real" synthetic oils left from the mass producers.

I think Redline is still a Group 5, and Amsoil is still a Group 4...not sure about Royal Purple...might be still a mix of products that are still Group 3 and 4, etc.

sigh.

:rolleyes: That sucks. Thanks for the info though. Don't shoot the messenger..

I learned about castrol changing their syntec oils to a modified dyno several years ago and switched to mobil 1 because of it. So now mobil 1 is pulling the same bullshit and not telling anyone? I guess redline is my last choice now. Wonder where I can find some locally.

Axle

Yeah - Mobil decided to downgrade BECAUSE of Castrol getting away with it...as they had to to stay cost competitive...and ALL the mass producers jumped in, once the precident had been set...sell Group 3 oil as Full Synthetic, or be priced out of the market.

So there ARE NO mass producers with Group 4 or 5 on the shelves any more...just Group 3's sold as Full Synthetics.

Interestingly...30% of the oil had to be cracked sufficiently to be able to say that...and the one's who advertised Synthetic Blends were just less than 30% Group 3...the rest of the oil in the can (> 70% ) could be Group 1 or 2, etc.

:rolleyes:

No, Mobil didn't HAVE to. They just did. They could have used marketing to differentiate their product but apparently decided there was more profit in lowering their quality and costs while keeping the same price.

That's one way to look at it...but, they would have been alone...ALL the other mass producers took the low road AS SOON AS the ruling came down that they could get away with it.

Try to imagine the great unwashed understanding why one 100% synthetic oil is better than another 100% synthetic oil...without getting into a chemistry lecture...which, traditionally, has not done well in analogous advertising scenarios.

The other companies just say "Why pay more for the same 100% Fully Synthetic Motor Oil?"....etc.

NO ONE stood up to make that claim that one will be better...its a tough row to hoe, and none had the back for it.

As an example...now that you KNOW, will YOU only buy Redline?

If yes...then you put your money where your mouth is.

If no, you are proving the point.

where did you get this information from???

Sorry.

My sources are confidential.

The info is out there though...for example, if you read the MSDS sheets, it says PAO, or ester, etc.

That really sucks to hear. I have been using mobil 1 for a while now. No point in paying extra for lesser quality. Might as well go with the synth. blend and save a few bucks. I'm not spending a ton more on Red Line.

What about those vehicles where the manufacturer require synthetic oil? ie. Audi or VW turbo 4 cylinders.
They dont mention synth. blends being acceptable, just full synthetic oils or excessive engine gunk will build up shortening the life of the motor.

Any ideas?

I just found out the service station here on post carries royal purple. A might spendy at $7.50/qt but I think I'll go with it just because this castrol/mobil 1 bullshit pisses me off.

Axle

I just became a distributor of AMSOIL.. I should have some Xterra product up soon. And they are less expensive than RP

Good questions.

OK - the "Blends" have less than 30% of even the Group 3, so they are mostly Grade 1 or 2...so, the Group 3's are better oils.

The auto manufacturers tend to specify the oils if they wanted synth...like my wife's Mini Cooper says to use Mobil1.

I assume that following their reommendation would cover you from a warrenty perspective...and that using Reline, etc...would be defensible.

Huh...that sucks. After reading this I had to dig up the MSDS on the Valvoline "SynPower" I use. Looks like SynPower is a group 3 cracked hydrocarbon, even though right on the label it says "100% Full Synthetic." Kind of sneaky, especially since Valvoline sells a synthetic blend for about half the price of their "full synthetic." At over $4/qt I just kind of assumed I wasn't buying distilled dino juice.

I think Amsoil`s top dog is a group 5. If you become a prefered customer for $20.00 a year, then you can purchase Amsoil products at wholesale pricing...

My other vehicle is a 2006 VW GTI, and when I brought the car in for it`s magic 5000 mile service, guess what they whipped out, Castrol syntec, I said to the tech, you`ve got to be kidding me? That`s what VW specs for their synth???, so after the initial service, this car only see`s Amsoil 5W40 synth. I thinks its a bit better...PR...

I had heard or read this somewhere quite some time back; maybe two years ago??? It's disappointing for sure, but I'll still use Mobil 1 over standard Dino juice for now. What's really pissing me off about it is that the price keeps going up. Yeah, lower the quality and then keep increasing the price! :rolleyes: Redline is a fine choice for an alternative and really only costs a little more (maybe $1.50 more per quart), but it's not easy to find where I am. Royal Purple is even harder to find and I'm not convinced it's any better than Mobil 1 or any other big brand.

Once you look past the nauseating marketing, Amsoil makes some very nice oils. None of their oils above the XL series use group III base stocks. I use Amsoil in everything, right down to the push mower.

Amsoil is pretty much a Group 4 as far as I know...which is synthesized, and better than Group 3...still not in Group 5 territory, as you CAN get measureable wear, but, its very small measureable wear to be sure.



Yeah - they can say its 100% fully synthetic if it has at least 30% Group 3...so <30% Group 3 = "Synthetic Blend".

The labels are allowed to say synthetic...and that's my bone of contention...and why we lost off the shelf Group 5's.

I call BullShit on this. Mobile 1 is a Fully Syntetic oil. Now as for the best oil I use Amisol for my auto trans and rear end grease. I use Mobile 1 truck&suv for my Xterra, Mobile 1 10-30 BMW and my Jetta. I think this is nothing but a internet rummor. Please prove me wrong if my statment is Bull. I want the Facts though.

Where are YOUR facts? TJ made a good argument and stated what he knows and what he believes to be true... believe it if you want to - or don't... I don't care - but I think I'm switching to Amsoil JIC.

If you think integrity will stop big companies from screwing us all over and lying on their product labels you're sorely mistaken.

Guys, this is old news....but Mobil1 is still selling their synthetics as full synthetic. Some of that information is just simply not true, some of it is taken from old cases where Castrol won a suit saying that they could market their blend as synthetic. The Mobil1 you buy on the shelves today, and any day, is still full synthetic.

I work in the PetroChemical industry, and have good information...Mobil1 isn't changing, and it would be illegal for them to do so "without telling anyone", or advertising it on their product labels. It's federal law.

I've seen this rehashed on so many boards now, from Fishing boards, to 4x4 boards, to ricer boards...it's almost becoming like an Urban Legend....OLD NEWS!

Back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theory.

I did research on it. From relable web sites. Mobile 1 is Fully Sythetic OIL. End of story. There are Blends out there. They say syn blend.

Okay... but that statement doesn't tell us anything. This whole thread is about what "fully synthetic oil" really means. What are they making it out of? What's the base stock? What are the additives?

This statement from Mobil's website looks promising with the mention of PAO's - but doesn't really give us all the needed information:

I read an interesting paper published by Chevron that does a good job of explaining the differences between the groups as well as the ruling regarding the marketing of "synthetic" oils.

Particularly interesting was, "...in North America due to the recent ruling by the National Advertising Department of the Better Business Bureau that Group III base oils can be considered "synthetic" and because modern Group III base oils, made using hydroisomerization technology, have most of the attractive performance features of early synthetics."

So, because they can make dino oil act like an early Group IV oil (PAO) using a modern hydrocracking process, they can market it as "synthetic".

I couldn't find anything reliable regarding wether Mobil 1 changed their formula to a Group III (I use Mobil 1 5W-30 Truck & SUV). I could only find forum after forum claiming they had. Do you have a link Homeslice?